That's right.
Evidence of meeting #25 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elections.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #25 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elections.
A video is available from Parliament.
8:40 p.m.
Former Commissioner of Canada Elections, As an Individual
As I say, it would have to be picked up presumably by Elections Canada, without the assistance of investigators.
I'm not talking about a couple of our investigators; we had everybody there every day for 35 days. It was a full-court press on this. And these are matters, as we say.... Can we can we deal with them right away to keep things fair? I don't know. I don't know....
8:45 p.m.
NDP
Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
This question is only semi-rhetorical. Do you think the unintended result of the move of the office to the DPP is going to enhance our electoral process?
8:45 p.m.
Former Commissioner of Canada Elections, As an Individual
Well, you need a regulator during that 35-day period of time, engaged, and the benefit from investigators, I would submit, sir, is that they're good at it. They're skilled at it. They're 30-year veterans of police forces and dealing with people and getting municipal police forces to help out. When an investigator phones and says they want to talk to you about something, generally speaking the head of a condominium corporation will listen to them. They're very good at getting things done.
8:45 p.m.
Former Commissioner of Canada Elections, As an Individual
If there's someone else who can do it, I'd be pleased to hear it.
8:45 p.m.
NDP
Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
Right, but it's kind of a sad thing when such a major consequence as that would emerge from a completely unnecessary move of an office to another area of the capital, due to reasons that seem to amount to not much more than a having hate-on for the Chief Electoral Officer.
8:45 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
8:45 p.m.
NDP
Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
I want to ask you about another closed investigation. It's something called the in-and-out expense laundering scheme. Are you aware of how the mechanics of that were discovered? Did it have something to do with having access to candidate-level returns or returns at the district association level?
8:45 p.m.
Former Commissioner of Canada Elections, As an Individual
It had to do with audit work on campaign returns—
8:45 p.m.
Former Commissioner of Canada Elections, As an Individual
—large numbers jumping off the page.
8:45 p.m.
NDP
Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
So there were large numbers jumping off the page, but the office in question did not have access to the national-level documentation and receipts, to any party documentation and receipts. Is that correct?
8:45 p.m.
NDP
Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
Would you say that the lesson from how the Conservative Party's in-and-out expense laundering scheme was discovered would be that it would be beneficial if the Chief Electoral Officer had access to national-level documentation and receipts for national campaigns?
8:45 p.m.
Former Commissioner of Canada Elections, As an Individual
I'm sure the Chief Electoral Officer would agree with you on that point, but it wasn't vital in that particular case.
8:45 p.m.
Former Commissioner of Canada Elections, As an Individual
There was so much other information available.
8:45 p.m.
Conservative
8:45 p.m.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much, Mr. Corbett, for your time and your experience. It was very interesting.
I have a couple of questions based specifically on your comments. I'm going to take you through a couple of those comments before asking the questions that arose from them.
You said first that in your experience, both in Justice and within the commissioner's office, it was unusual for investigators and prosecutors to be housed together. You also said that the relatively small office of the commissioner—I think you said there were 20 people—relies heavily on Elections Canada resources, so it's a small unit housed within a larger one and totally reliant on the resources.
You talked about the legal experts. There's a question I have on that. The legal experts you rely on, do they advise both the commissioner and the Chief Electoral Officer and the administration side?
8:45 p.m.
Former Commissioner of Canada Elections, As an Individual
They could, but in fact I don't believe they were. We had legal officers working with us pretty much all the time, individual, but the same legal unit looked after all the legal matters. Elections Canada was concerned that whatever legal position Elections Canada took was reflected in our office as well.
8:45 p.m.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
You also said one of the reasons you found it unusual for investigators and prosecutors to be together was that the regulatory statute was at issue, and the goal of the Elections Act is compliance. Is it fair to say that the investigation side is less rooted in that goal and more in looking at the 200 infractions you mentioned after the fact?
8:50 p.m.
Former Commissioner of Canada Elections, As an Individual
No. As I say, if we can get compliance without worrying about the infractions, we're interested in doing that. That is fostered when witnesses do talk to us and tell us what's gone wrong and what's happened. That's the first step towards a cooperative and perhaps a compliance agreement and no referral at all. Compliance agreements are dealt with by our office alone. When people are cooperating and telling us what's happened, that's good faith, right off the bat.
