Evidence of meeting #28 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elections.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Susan Eng  Vice-President, Advocacy, Canadian Association of Retired Persons
Pat Kerwin  President, Congress of Union Retirees of Canada
Danis Prud'homme  Chief Executive Officer, Réseau FADOQ
Jessica McCormick  National Chairperson, Canadian Federation of Students
Calvin Fraser  Secretary General, Canadian Teachers' Federation
Élise Demers  Advisor, Citizen Engagement and Training, Table de concertation des forums jeunesse régionaux du Québec

7 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

We'll call ourselves to order, please. It's seven o'clock. We're here for meeting number 28 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, under order of reference of Monday, February 10, on Bill C-23.

We have three witnesses in the first hour tonight. We have Susan Eng, from the Canadian Association of Retired Persons. We have Pat Kerwin, from the Congress of Union Retirees. We have Danis Prud’homme, the chief executive officer of Réseau FADOQ. All will be giving us an opening statement, but I think we decided we'd start with Ms. Eng.

There's a point of order.

7 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Chair, I didn't know if you were going to get to it or not.

7 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I knew you would jump in if I missed it, so Mr. Christopherson, you have a point of order before we start.

7 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thanks, Chair. Not to take up any time, I have just a couple of issues.

The first one, just to advise you, Chair, is I have raised with the parliamentary secretary to the government House leader our request that we move Sheila Fraser from the evening to the day, for obvious reasons. The daytime has been recognized as the prime time, when everybody is here. We make no bones about it. There have already been discussions that had people and groups moved as a result of that recognition. I have yet to hear back from Mr. Lukiwski. We're hoping for a positive response. It's not a big deal, but certainly I think it's in the best interest of this bill that Madam Fraser, given her importance, be given a spot in prime time, if you will.

The second one, Chair, is a little more serious. I want to take exception to the letter sent by Mr. Lukiwski to you.

The letter that was sent to you asked you to ask witnesses if they have any connection with the Chief Electoral Officer. The letter is here to be read in full, if you want.

First of all, let me say that somehow we've gotten into this notion that the Chief Electoral Officer is some kind of opponent or enemy of the people or of the interest...I will get to my point. This is an important...

7 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Get to your point of order. Editorializing on a point of order is not what I'm looking for either.

7 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Do I still have the floor?

7 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

You do, but get to your point of order.

7 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you.

I want to make the case that, number one, I think it's insulting to suggest that being attached to Elections Canada is anything other than a positive item on your resumé, but lastly—

7 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Mr. Chair, on the same point of order.

7 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

—if somebody wants these questions asked, they can ask them themselves and not ask the Chair to ask their questions.

7 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I've not ruled on that, Mr. Christopherson. It's nice to get advance points of order.

Mr. Reid.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

I wonder if you could make it a practice of requiring us, when we bring a point of order, to actually deal with the point in the orders that we think is being violated before we get into editorials.

7 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Look. This committee has done so well at being really good friends and getting things done by consensus. The editorializing during points of order does cause us some grief. I understand what's been said so far. I had some other hands, but if you're fine with it, I'll just move on.

Mr. O'Toole, be really quick.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON

Mr. Chair, in fairness, I only became aware of this advisory board last week. In my questions to Professor Thomas, I asked him to either clarify or correct a part of his submission to this committee. Had I known about his special role as an adviser, I would have asked for clarification on that as well. Perhaps some clarity could be given on his role on the advisory board, because one of the subjects they're advising Elections Canada on is electoral reform.

7 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I think you just did.

Mr. Lukiwski.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

I have two quick points.

On the former, we're quite happy with the schedule as it has already been presented. I appreciate David saying, yes, we'd certainly like to highlight Ms. Fraser in prime time. Obviously she's made comments critical of the bill that we're all aware of. We understand that. I'm sure she'll get as ample coverage in the evening, but the chair and the clerk have gone to great trouble to put together a schedule that I think works, so we're quite happy with that.

With respect to David's second point, let me give you a quick analogy. He said he feels insulted, and that somehow this is inappropriate. If we were the industry committee studying a bill or a piece of legislation on telecommunications, for example, and we had a witness come forward to offer testimony, I would want to know whether or not that witness was giving a viewpoint based on all the facts, or whether or not that witness was perhaps being contracted out by a telco. That certainly has some impact on public opinion, at least on testimony being given, so I think it's quite legitimate to ask anyone.

Not only have we found after the fact that Professor Thomas had signed a contractual agreement with Elections Canada, but we also found out that Mr. Neufeld had a contract for up to $25,000 as well, which we didn't know in advance, which could have changed some of the testimony we asked for.

I think it was a legitimate request.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you very much.

7:05 p.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Scott, I'd like to get to our witnesses. I know they've come a long way, and they would love to share with us.

7:05 p.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

No, no, exactly; I think I can help the chair.

It seemed that you weren't planning on actually doing this—I hope you weren't—but the point is that each one of our colleagues over there is perfectly capable of asking those questions to the witness, using their time in doing so and in associating themselves with that kind of questioning.

Do you want to put us in the position of setting this kind of precedent, asking the chair to ask these kinds of questions of every witness? Do you want to put this throughout the system of the committees? Do you want this? I don't think you do.

We're perfectly happy if you guys ask these questions, but to ask the chair to do it? No way.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

We'll go on. Thank you.

We have three witnesses with us tonight. I have introduced them already.

Ms. Eng, I'm sorry. We had to do a little committee business there, but we will try not to let it cut into your time.

Please make your opening statement. You have five minutes or less, please, if you could.

7:05 p.m.

Susan Eng Vice-President, Advocacy, Canadian Association of Retired Persons

Thank you for the opportunity to address this committee on Bill C-23, the fair elections act.

CARP is a national non-profit, non-partisan organization with 300,000 members across the country in its 56 local chapters. The average age of our members is about 69. Like most Canadians in this demographic, they vote regularly and have a deep commitment to our democratic institutions, especially something as important as the electoral process.

In preparation for my remarks today, we polled our members for their reaction to some of the major provisions of the bill. Over 3,600 members responded with a very clear message. The vast majority of CARP members, 80%, disapprove of the fair elections act, fully two-thirds in the strongest terms. They see it as a diminishing of democracy, and they want it withdrawn or amended significantly.

On specific provisions, CARP members see reduced voter participation as a bigger problem than voter fraud by a factor of 4:1; 72% do not think vouching is a source of voter fraud; 75% think banning vouching will suppress voter participation; and 80% disapprove of prohibiting the Chief Electoral Officer from promoting voter turnout, and reject the notion that such promotion can lead to bias.

It's worth noting that the specific part of the mandate that is being eliminated is in section 18 of the Elections Act:The Chief Electoral Officer may implement public education and information programs to make the electoral process better known to the public, particularly to those persons and groups most likely to experience difficulties in exercising their democratic rights.

We recommend that this mandate be properly restored.

Among our members, 83% think the bill does not do enough to deal with robocalls. We recommend that records be kept of the script, as well as to whom the robocalls were directed, for five years, not for just one year.

As well, 89% disapprove of allowing political parties to nominate polling officials and allowing the party with the most votes to nominate the central poll supervisor. Given the strong reaction to the proposal, we recommend that all elections officers be appointed based on merit, and not be nominated by the candidates' electoral district associations or parties. A full 75% disapprove of raising the campaign contribution limits.

On the specific issue of voter identification cards and vouching, one-tenth of all members actually themselves either had to have somebody vouch for them or knew of somebody who had to be vouched for. One-third of them used the voter identification cards.

Given the commitment to voting from CARP members and older Canadians generally, I think it's reasonable to suggest that CARP members themselves would be inconvenienced by the elimination of vouching and the use of voter identification cards but not disenfranchised. They would find the necessary identification to allow them to vote. However, they are clearly concerned with the impact on others, especially those in seniors homes or long-term care.

I'm going to mention a person who sent a letter in to a chapter of CARP in Edmonton. She wrote on behalf of her 97-year-old mother who is in long-term care now. It was a letter the content of which she asked us to convey to this committee.

The mother is frail, but fully capable of voting, and has done so regularly with the home's workers vouching for her. She no longer has a driver's licence. The Alberta health card does not have her address. Her daughter handles all of her banking and other needs, so all her mail goes to the daughter. To be able to vote now, she has to ask the home to issue her an attestation of residence, which will also be necessary for all the other residents in the home who wish to vote.

The option of vouching in such a case has the obvious advantage of leaving little to no opportunity for voter fraud, especially as many nursing homes and seniors residences have polling stations right in the building.

We recommend that vouching be reinstated and the use of voter identification cards be made permanent. Having well-trained and non-partisan polling officials will protect against any irregularities.

CARP members are avid voters, and clearly see this bill as detrimental to voter participation and detrimental to a fair and transparent electoral process and to democracy itself. As such, we believe that at a minimum the bill should be amended to reverse the provisions highlighted above. Otherwise, Bill C-23 should be withdrawn.

Thank you very much.

7:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you very much.

We'll move to Mr. Kerwin, for five minutes or less, if you could, please.

7:10 p.m.

Pat Kerwin President, Congress of Union Retirees of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Congress of Union Retirees of Canada, whose affiliate membership represents a half a million retirees and their spouses, welcomes the opportunity to present our views to the committee tonight.

Voting is an important right and indeed a duty to seniors, as they see it. It is therefore not surprising that retired people have the best rate of turnout to vote of all age groups. We do not want to lose that right. We are concerned that changes proposed in Bill C-23 will mean that some seniors will lose that right. If we, as Canadians, really believe in encouraging and enabling people to vote, we should make it easier for people to exercise their franchise. Instead Bill C-23 will make it harder for some seniors to vote, specifically those who have moved since the last election.

There was a time when the government actually did enumeration when elections were called. I’m old enough to remember that. This didn’t produce a perfect list, but it did always get seniors on the voters list because they would be there when people came around. The governments, though, decided they would save money and they’d do it by having people do something on their tax form. The problem there is that not everyone will check that spot off. Also, those tax forms are probably filled out in February, and if the election comes in October, someone may well have moved in between those two dates. This is especially true as people grow older. They often have to move out of their homes at very short notice when health issues come upon them. They often move in with their family, their son or their daughter, or into, as Susan talked about, a residence of assisted living.

A senior in his or her late eighties is not likely to have a driver's licence, probably doesn't have a passport anymore, and a health card in some jurisdictions has your picture on it, but in Ontario at least doesn't have your address. The bills that they would get for gas, electricity, or whatever go to the son or daughter—that's who has their statement—or the residence they're living in, so they're not going to be able to produce these other sorts of identification.

Our basic question to members of the committee is: why should not a daughter or son be able to vouch for their parents to vote if that's who they're living with? I think it just doesn't make sense. The rationale offered by the minister for this change is the need to eliminate serious voter fraud. From what I read—in the press and that—about the study he quoted to prove it, the author says that's not true.

There are also these stories about the bogus collection of vote-at cards that are being used incorrectly. That also appears not to be true. In fact, under the current act, Elections Canada doesn't allow me or you to go in and vouch for 50 people. You have to be in the riding and you're limited to one person. It's not as though somebody can go around doing this with vote-at cards without limit.

To us retirees, the removal of the right to vouch is a solution looking for a problem that has not been found. If concern of future fraud was the real issue, we would think you would increase the powers of Elections Canada to deal with this. Instead, unfortunately, Bill C-23 seeks to lessen the role of Elections Canada down to the point—it's already been mentioned—that they can no longer run programs to encourage people to vote. In every democracy it's important that the rules be set fairly and with due consultation. Indeed, Canadians are often found around the world trying to ensure that elections are fair.

It may have taken radicals to get the vote for everybody in Canada, but the thing that's interesting today is that frequently the criticism of this bill is coming from sources that would normally support the Conservative Party. The Globe and Mail hasn't supported the Liberal Party since George Brown left, but they've been very adamant about how they see this bill as being the wrong way to go. On the fraud argument, they said:

As for fraud, Canadians are more likely to think about political insiders misdirecting voters with robocalls than about voters trying to cast ineligible ballots.

They talked about a number of issues, but the really important one was about Elections Canada. This is what they wrote:

The legislation seems to be trying to make it harder for him—

—the Chief Electoral Officer—

—and his agency, Elections Canada, to do their jobs – a non-partisan job that is essential for the health of our democracy.

It just baffles my mind why the government's so intransigent to everyone coming forward saying that there are problems here. Frankly, it doesn't even make sense for you as a Conservative. Seniors tend to vote more for the Conservative Party than any other ones, yet you're going to limit them in voting. It betrays common sense and even political sense to me.

I'll conclude with one last quote from what The Globe and Mail said about the bill:

On a matter of democratic principles, which should be above partisanship, the government feels no need to work with the other parties, to consider proof or to provide it, to consult experts or, god forbid, to listen to them. It is government disconnected from the rules of evidence, and it points the way to government disconnected from the rules.

I would hope this committee would take the opportunity to amend this bill and not leave it to an unelected chamber to do it.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you, Mr. Kerwin.

We'll go to Mr. Prud'homme, please, for five minutes or less.