Evidence of meeting #63 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was shall.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Andre Barnes  Analyst

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

We're saying that's highly inadequate and that transparency is not served in the context of this bill if a record isn't created. This also will line up with our amendment asking that the Speaker cause the decisions of each caucus to be published on the parliamentary website.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I think I have the views.

Mr. Simms.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

That also involves being transparent to the point where if you do not go with what is being suggested here, your alternative must also be in writing as well.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

Yes.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

All right.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I'll call the question on subamendment 3 and it will also apply to subamendment 4.

(Subamendment negatived: nays 5; yeas 3 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We will now go to subamendment 5.

Mr. Scott.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

Because of the requirement that we would have wanted to see to report to the Speaker in writing what rules do apply, whether you're accepting, let's call them the Chong rules, or you have your own rules, because that has now been voted against, this would have to be modified with reference to the information: “Once the Speaker receives the information in subsection (5)”—it couldn't say subsections (5) and (6)—“she or he shall cause to be published in an accessible manner on the website of Parliament the sections and/or subsections accepted through caucus votes as well as, if any of those sections or subsections have not been accepted, the rules that apply in their stead." Because we lost the vote earlier, the words “as well as...” are going to have to be struck just to be consistent.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I see what you're saying, that in subamendment 5, part of what you're asking for was defeated previously.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

Get rid of the words “and subsection (6)” and then the words after “caucus votes”, starting with “as well as”.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Right, so remove from “as well as” all the way to the end. I have it.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

Yes. Again, we wouldn't want to see those words go, because we wanted to see the earlier section adopted, but it hasn't been.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

That's subsection (6) and then to the bottom—

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

Yes, and it now reads: “Once the Speaker receives the information in subsection (5),”—which each party has to tell the Speaker, apparently not in writing. Hopefully, as Mr. Lukiwski said, it at least will be somebody rising in the House to tell the Speaker so it will be in Hansard—“she or he shall cause to be published in an accessible manner on the website of Parliament the sections and/or subsections accepted through caucus votes.”

Here I really would like to appeal to the government. We now have a rather minimalist approach which is that each party does have to vote. They then have to tell the Speaker which ones they've accepted, effectively, what the result of the vote was, and all the information that the Speaker, under this provision, would be required to have put up on the website with respect to each recognized party caucus is literally did the party accept this, this, and this. It's still transparency, but really stripped down. I hope they would go with that.

(Subamendment negatived: nays 5; yeas 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

We'll move to subamendment 6, and we're still on clause 9.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

In this one I should say that as I tried to make clear earlier, and having consulted Mr. Chong, this is not one that he particularly feels all that strongly about because he's had lots of back and forth with the government and has not prevailed when the government inserted the clause that says, “The outcome of each vote is binding on the caucus until the next dissolution of Parliament.” So, he supports the fact that we're moving this but it's not one that he finds crucial. I want to be up front about that.

What we would like to do is, instead of saying the outcome of each vote is binding on the caucus until the next dissolution of Parliament, we would want to say, “Each caucus shall decide whether the outcome of each vote is binding on caucus until the next dissolution of Parliament”. There are provisions here to indicate that whatever that decision is also has to be communicated to the Speaker. There are a couple of reasons for this.

One reason is pure consistency. The government is kind of going to the wall here on this being a completely optional process where Parliament is not reaching inside parties and telling them what to do, and yet this clause tells each caucus what to do. It basically means that a caucus is prohibited from revisiting its own rules. I see that as completely inconsistent with the government's position.

For example, what if the Conservative caucus voted and all the MPs come back and a whole number of them are at sea because they've just been elected and they go with the flow and agree to continue with the rule that the leader of the party can appoint the chair, but a year later, they realize it might be better to elect a chair. This precludes that. I don't see it as keeping in the spirit of either Mr. Chong's bill or the government's philosophy that we should not be mandating what parties do.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Okay. Understood.

I think we'll put the vote in writing.

(Subamendment negatived: nays, 5; yeas, 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We are on government amendment G-4, as amended.

Mr. Lukiwski.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Chair, we had table-dropped further amendments.

I apologize for not getting to all of the amendments. Except for this, we had provided those to you before. This is a last-minute one. We've had discussions again with the sponsor. It's a very minor one.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

If it's the one that's in front of me, you've adopted it.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Oh.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

We have adopted it.

That's why I mentioned G-4 as amended, because it was amended by that one.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Good.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

We're voting on amendment G-4, in its entirety, as amended.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

On division.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Sure.

(Amendment as amended agreed to on division)

Shall clause 9, as amended, carry?

(Clause 9 as amended agreed to on division)

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Shall clause 10 carry?