Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I certainly tried to bring us to relevance during Mr. Cooper's comments. However, I was unsuccessful, and he has now set a precedent.

In any event, you concluded your comments, Mr. MacKinnon, by saying that the government stands unequivocally with Ukraine. Is that true?

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

Absolutely. The government—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Can you say the same thing for all 338 members of Parliament?

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

If one were weighing international impacts, I would say that the decision by certain parliamentarians to not support the renewed Canada-Ukraine free trade arrangements has certainly echoed around the world with allies far more than this incident ever did.

Ukrainians in Canada and Ukrainians in Ukraine have reason to doubt there there is unanimity in the Canadian Parliament with respect to support for Ukraine and for repelling Russian aggression.

It is an illegal war, I remind all members, and resisting it is a moral cause. It is a just cause and it is one that deserves our support by default.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I couldn't agree more.

The reality of the situation, Madam Chair, is that I only wish the Conservative Party of Canada could have given as much attention to Ukraine, generally speaking, as it's chosen to give to this particular issue, because it's trying to use an unfortunate situation to exploit political gain.

The reality, Madam Chair, is that we know Conservatives have continually and routinely shown themselves to not support Ukraine. As a matter of fact, just during this event that occurred in the House of Commons—I'm not even sure if you're aware of this, Mr. MacKinnon; you can tell me if you are or if you aren't—the Leader of the Opposition never issued a single social media post about President Zelenskyy appearing in Parliament—not before, not after. He did not show any degree or level of support whatsoever.

Were you aware of that?

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

I think that was noted by several unbiased commentators. I was sitting in close proximity to Mr. Zelenskyy and the Leader of the Opposition and I couldn't help but note the tepid applause that was offered that day.

I know that it was an inspiring day for parliamentarians from all sides of the House. I left the House of Commons that day extremely inspired and proud of my country for what it's doing and what it continues to do to support our Ukrainian friends and allies.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Were you surprised, Mr. MacKinnon, when the leader of the official opposition didn't even bother to issue a single tweet saying “thank you” to a president who travelled across the globe and whose country is currently at war against a dictator who has no regard for democracy whatsoever? Were you as equally surprised as I was—and am—that he chose not to issue a single statement on it, yet the moment this issue arose, he used every single opportunity to exploit it, as Conservatives continue to do today, for political advantage?

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

I was very surprised. I recall thinking to myself that this may be a precursor or a sign of what we're observing around the world in some conservative parties, which is that support for Ukraine and the moral cause it represents is flagging among Conservatives, and that this was a cause for concern. I think that was confirmed, as we all now know, later during the debate on the free trade arrangements, when we saw Conservatives break from a Canadian consensus with respect to economic support, military support and diplomatic support for Ukraine.

That is something I think we should all remain concerned about.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon.

I believe that wraps up my time, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Do you want it to wrap up? There's a minute left.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I'll turn the last minute over to Mrs. Romanado.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Minister MacKinnon, for being here.

In the previous panel, the clerk mentioned that currently, procedurally, the list of categories to recognize individuals in the Speaker's gallery does not actually apply to a joint address. We went through the list of joint addresses to Parliament, which date back to 1940. There have been instances of people in the audience being referenced in a speech but not actually being formally recognized by the Speaker.

Given the fact that you are the government House leader, sit on the Board of Internal Economy, and speak with the other leaders of the opposition, do you think that this is something we should be putting into practice? It's not part of the Standing Orders, but do you recommend, going forward, that this could be a recommendation for us as part of procedure and practice?

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

I know generally that the House administration and the Speaker's office are continuing to work on guidelines and best practices with respect to joint addresses. I think we also, as members, all live under this rebuke or reminder that we get from time to time to not recognize members in the gallery, that the Speaker is the sole person able to do so. We're going to be working on those guidelines, and I look forward to participating in that work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Gaudreau, for six minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We discussed the guest lists. For President Zelenskyy's speech, many who attended were from the who's who of Canadian politics. Then, of course, there was Mr. Hunka.

We spoke about protocol, but I'd also like to discuss the diplomatic aspects of similar events.

How can an incident like this happen? Who, when all is said and done, is responsible? We've been told that the protocol office complied with its commitments and was not required to do an open-source check. That's all very well, but how can a former Nazi soldier in Canada end up in the House in connection with the war in Ukraine?

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you very much for the question, Ms. Gaudreau.

At the time, I was the chief government whip, and remained on the outer fringes of everything that happened. My understanding of it is that Speaker Rota submitted a list of guests and they were received without any kind of warning—

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Who should have been informed after he prepared this list himself? Are you saying that he didn't show his list to his team?

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

I'm talking about his office, rather. My understanding of it is, once again, that the Speaker of the House of Commons is fully entitled to welcome a certain number of guests to special events, like President Zelenskyy's speech.

Once again, while I have no direct knowledge of the matter, I would have naturally assumed that the security services that protect us carried out some security checks. Their role is to determine whether certain men or women constitute a threat to the building or the people in it.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

That's right. They wouldn't get far.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

So this person went through this part of the security check. However, for background checks, there is no central authority in the government that looks at the political backgrounds of guests, whether of the Bloc Québécois or from—

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

No, but simply doing a Google search could reveal information that might raise a red flag, couldn't it?

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

I'd like to go back to my answer to Ms. Romanado's question. That's among the things that House administration could decide to review.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Yes, precisely.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

It would decide what can be done.

However, it's not up to the government to check whether invited guests are to be admitted or not.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Are you told when the Speaker of the House submits a list of guests?