Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 9th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Good morning, everyone. I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 111 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The committee is meeting today to continue its study of parliamentary protocol related to an incident in the Speaker's gallery on Friday, September 22.

I would like to remind everyone that care must be taken with the earpieces for interpretation. Please do not place the earpiece near the microphone or use it as a gadget tool.

As we know, all comments should be addressed through the chair. The clerk and I will maintain a consolidated speaking list.

Today we have with us, from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, Mr. Sébastien Carrière, chief of protocol of Canada and personal representative of the Prime Minister of Canada for la Francophonie. We also have Andrea Hudson, director, official visits. From the Privy Council Office, we have Christine Kennedy, acting assistant secretary, foreign and defence policy secretariat.

Is everybody providing an opening statement? Both of you are. That's perfect. Who would like to go first? We will give you up to five minutes for your opening statement, and then we'll proceed with questions after.

Welcome to PROC. Thank you.

[Sébastien Carrière, Chief of Protocol of Canada and Personal Representative of the Prime Minister of Canada for La Francophonie, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Honourable members, my name is Sébastien Carrière. As Chief of Protocol of Canada, I have the pleasure of meeting with you today to explain the role of the Office of Protocol of Canada in organizing official visits to Canada from heads of state or foreign governments.

The Office of Protocol of Canada is responsible for managing and coordinating state protocol international functions, which include a range of services to the diplomatic corps, high-level visits and official events hosted by the Prime Minister.

Receiving heads of state is an important expression and instrument of Canada’s foreign policy. Some of the main goals in receiving international visits include promoting Canada, strengthening Canada’s relationships with international partners and deepening people-to-people ties.

The office of protocol coordinates all visits to Canada by foreign dignitaries invited by the Prime Minister and serves as the channel of communication between the representatives of the visitor and federal partners such as the parliamentary protocol office, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Privy Council Office.

We establish and maintain a high-level diplomatic framework within which effective planning between the two governments can take place and issues can be resolved. We provide high-level advice on matters of diplomacy, protocol and logistics. We develop and implement the visit program in support of the mutual foreign policy objectives of the visitor and the host.

In the planning stages of the visit, we are the main interface with the visiting country’s embassy or high commission. We develop the program and implement logistical arrangements together with the federal partners with whom we closely coordinate.

As for the aspects of the program implemented in the Parliamentary Precinct, we work closely with the Parliamentary Protocol Office on the coordination and logistics of activities held at Parliament.

When a potential or confirmed visit includes an activity taking place within the Parliamentary Precinct, we undertake discussions about the desired program elements and their consequences on Parliament’s activities.

In the case of an address to Parliament taking place in the House of Commons, we act as the interface between parliamentary protocol and the foreign visitor on matters of logistics and program implementation.

On the day of the address itself, we work collaboratively with parliamentary counterparts to ensure the scenario unfolds as agreed to by all stakeholders, including the foreign visitor.

As the committee already heard, invitations to a parliamentary speech are sent through the Parliamentary Protocol Office. The Office of Protocol of Canada does not have access to the complete guest list. However, we contribute to the list of members for official delegations and the Ottawa diplomatic corps who must attend an event.

Thank you very much.

I would now be happy to answer questions from committee members.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Carrière.

Ms. Kennedy, go ahead, please.

[Christine Kennedy, Acting Assistant Secretary, Foreign and Defence Policy Secretariat, Privy Council Office]

Madam Chair, honourable members, good morning.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear today. My name is Christine Kennedy. I am the acting assistant secretary to cabinet for operations with the foreign and defence policy secretariat at the Privy Council Office.

With respect to the issue being considered by this committee—the invitation and recognition of Yaroslav Hunka in Parliament on September 22, 2023—I wish to confirm that the Privy Council Office had no role in any invitation to him or in his recognition in Parliament.

I am pleased to join you today to explain the role of the Foreign and Defence Policy Secretariat in organizing official visits.

The Privy Council Office's foreign and defence policy secretariat is responsible for monitoring, coordinating and providing advice on various international issues spanning defence, diplomacy, trade and development assistance. A key function of the secretariat is providing support to the Prime Minister for international engagements, including interactions with foreign dignitaries. Notably, visits of international leaders serve as crucial platforms to advance Canada's international and domestic objectives and interests.

President Zelenskyy's visit to Canada in September 2023 was an opportunity to demonstrate Canada's solidarity with the people of Ukraine as they fight for their sovereignty and democracy. This particular visit had three strategic objectives: to reaffirm Canada's solidarity with the government and the people of Ukraine at a crucial moment in the war; to demonstrate resolve to provide unwavering support to Ukraine; and to emphasize Canada's commitment to Ukraine's immediate recovery and long-term reconstruction.

President Zelenskyy's visit yielded tangible results, including $650 million in new military assistance for armoured vehicles built in Canada, and the signing of the modernized Canada-Ukraine Free Trade Agreement. In addition, engagements with the private sector bolstered economic ties, while engagements with Canada's Ukrainian communities deepened strong people-to-people connections.

Each visit that we support has a unique context with specific objectives. We collaborate closely with Global Affairs Canada to prioritize and recognize visits by closely evaluating foreign policy goals and potential achievable outcomes for the engagements.

As part of the planning process, we convene interdepartmental meetings with Global Affairs and other implicated departments as appropriate, such as the Department of National Defence, Department of Finance and Public Safety Canada, as well as the Prime Minister's Office. During these meetings, we ensure that agreed-upon foreign policy objectives and desired outcomes, including advancement of domestic interests, are appropriately reflected in the program elements for the visit.

In line with the foreign and defence policy secretariat's primary role of providing policy advice, the secretariat also prepares comprehensive briefing material to support the Prime Minister. This includes overview scenario notes, issue briefs and meeting notes.

Logistics and security arrangements are handled by other entities, such as the Global Affairs office for protocol and the RCMP. The Privy Council Office is not responsible for vetting individuals or reviewing invitation lists for the House of Commons.

Thank you very much.

I’m happy to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much.

We will now enter into our six-minute rounds, starting with Mr. Duncan, followed by Mr. Duguid.

We will then move on to Ms. Gaudreau, then Ms. Mathyssen.

Mr. Duncan, you have six minutes, through the chair.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here this morning.

In terms of your opening comments, one of the things here is that what happened in the House of Commons in having Mr. Hunka recognized that day was a complete embarrassment internationally for Canada and for our Prime Minister. One of the other key aspects, which neither of you have raised in your comments and was also another embarrassing factor, was the fact that Mr. Hunka was invited to the other official event that happened during that visit in Toronto.

One of the questions that I want to start off with, Ms. Kennedy, perhaps with you, is that, when we talk about the vetting of lists for the House of Commons, this could have been avoided by a vetting process for the Toronto event as well, where Mr. Hunka was also invited. Can you talk about that event that PCO is responsible for or a partner in or has lists for, and what vetting you do?

Mr. Carrière, I'm going to ask you the same question in terms of your office.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I have a point of order.

Just for clarity, Madam Chair, my understanding is that we are studying the issue that happened in the House of Commons. Mr. Duncan is introducing something that happened at another event outside the House of Commons. Can you provide some clarity as to the direction we're going?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I would have to agree that it is about what happened in the House of Commons. The last time, there was more leniency given because the House leader had come and brought in the other events. He brought in and expanded the scope, so it was only appropriate that we asked those questions when they expand the scope. However, I would say that our guests are here today to speak about what took place in the House of Commons. I did not hear any reference to anything outside of the House of Commons—

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I didn't get my first question out, so I'm trying to make the connection.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

What we're doing, rather than going too far—and I'd have to agree with Mr. Gerretsen in this case—is remaining within the incident that took place in the House of Commons. Therefore, the witnesses will be allowed to answer as they please.

I think you heard the question. Do you want to see if they want to try to answer?

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I'm going to appeal that if I may, Madam Chair, because I couldn't even get the first question answered here on the lack of vetting by the Prime Minister's Office, the PCO and the protocol office for other events during that same visit. I want to understand what they had for those events and the red flags that were raised about Mr. Hunka and his not being recognized. He should not have been invited. The Prime Minister's Office has acknowledged that the individual you're speaking about should not have been invited to their event. If they had had better protocols, perhaps this would not have happened on the floor of the House of Commons.

I'm trying to correlate that, very reasonably and very fairly, to the official visit. The chief of protocol is here. He's speaking about the entire official visit by President Zelenskyy. It is very relevant to do that, so I'm going to appeal that call and say that it is absolutely relevant to try to show how, in many cases, there was a lack of proper vetting done. There were many opportunities to catch this, and it was not caught.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

No, I'm moving on. I've told you where I stand. We know what the motion was. You can reread the motion, which members decided to pass, if you're concerned with it. All of you are well aware of what we passed.

We spoke about the incident in the gallery of the House of Commons. That is why our guests are here today. You've heard the question.

I will now pass the floor back to our guests so we can hear their voices as well.

Thank you for coming to PROC.

[Christine Kennedy]

Thank you for the question, Madam Chair.

I'll be clear right up front. PCO was not aware that Yaroslav Hunka was invited to the address or would be part of the Speaker's speech before the Speaker delivered his speech in Parliament. As you have heard, lists of guests invited to an address in Parliament are managed by the office of protocol at Parliament.

I would add that we were requested, by PCO, to provide a list of 25 government officials who could attend the address to Parliament, which we did in consultation with key departments such as Global Affairs Canada, Public Safety and the Department of National Defence.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Before that, my question was about the event in Toronto. Both offices here, your offices, were responsible for the guest list for that event. I want to know what vetting was done for the guest list through which the Prime Minister's Office provided an invitation to Mr. Hunka. For that event, what vetting and process were followed to vet guests from the list of those your office invited, including Mr. Hunka?

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I have a point of order.

Mr. Duncan is deliberately and intentionally not heeding your ruling. You are the chair of this meeting. You have ruled on what is admissible in terms of questions, and they have to relate to the event that happened in the House of Commons.

You ruled on that. You made a decision on that. Mr. Duncan is deliberately ignoring your ruling and trying to continue to engage in that dialogue. Despite the fact that he might not agree with your ruling, I would encourage you to call him to order, Madam Chair.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I have appealed that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I have decided against it.

Back to the report that—

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Could we put the question perhaps to the—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

No. I have told you that we are here—

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

But this—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Anybody can throw a tantrum if they'd like. It's very simple.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I'm not throwing a tantrum.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

This is really simple. What is the reason we are here today? Let me remind us all. As I said at the beginning, the committee is meeting today to continue its study of parliamentary protocol related to an incident in the Speaker's gallery on Friday, September 22, 2023.

Is there a Speaker's gallery in Toronto? Yes, there is. Is it for a different level of government? It is. Are there elections at all levels of government? There are. If that's where the interests lie, go for it. However, right now we're in Ottawa, the nation's capital. The gallery we're referring to is in the House of Commons in Ottawa, and that's why our witnesses are here.

Mr. Duncan, please remain within the scope of why we're here. Thank you.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Madam Chair, I'm going to say here that I appeal the ruling. Perhaps the committee should take a vote on this and challenge the chair's ruling on this because.... I'm going to go back and repeat where it is relevant to the questions—