Evidence of meeting #112 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was events.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dominik Roszak  First Vice-President, Canadian Polish Congress
Superintendent Mitch Monette  Director, Parliamentary Service, Parliamentary Protective Service
Matthew Ritchie  Associate Chief, Operations, Parliamentary Protective Service

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Good morning, everyone. I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 112 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The committee is meeting today to continue its study of parliamentary protocol related to an incident in the Speaker's gallery on Friday, September 22, 2023.

It's really exciting today to have, from the Canadian Polish Congress, Dominik Roszak, first vice-president, who is joining us by video conference. I understand you have opening remarks. We look forward to hearing them.

Welcome to the procedure and House affairs committee.

The floor is yours, Mr. Roszak.

11 a.m.

Dominik Roszak First Vice-President, Canadian Polish Congress

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Honourable members of Parliament, on behalf of the Canadian Polish Congress, thank you for this opportunity to address the serious matter of the former member of the SS Galicia unit who was invited to be honoured in the House of Commons last year.

Canada’s Polish community, much like Canada’s Jewish community, watched in horror as members of Parliament, inadvertently prompted by the then-Speaker of the House, rose in the chamber to applaud Yaroslav Hunka as a “Ukrainian hero and a Canadian hero” who fought against the Russians. That wording immediately caught our attention, as it quickly became evident who Mr. Hunka had fought for: namely, the SS Galicia unit. This moment was a shock for Polish Canadians, who were baffled at how such an event could have come to pass in our House of Commons.

To properly address that question, it is important to set out the relevant historical context. First, the Waffen SS was not a conventional German Wehrmachtmilitary unit. Rather, it was quite literally the combat wing of the Nazi Party’s Schutzstaffel organization, which was created to implement its aims. Its members were required to swear personal fealty to Adolf Hitler. The SS Galicia, also known as the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS, 1st Galician, was created by Nazi Germany as a part of a broader strategy to recruit and mobilize non-German ethnic groups in occupied territories to fight alongside the German armed forces.

The SS Galicia was composed mainly of Ukrainian volunteers from the Galicia region, then part of Nazi German-occupied Poland. These volunteers were motivated by various factors, including opposition to Soviet rule, nationalist sentiments and promises of autonomy. Nazi Germany exploited these sentiments to bolster its military forces and further its goals of expansion and domination in eastern Europe.

Mr. Yaroslav Hunka was a member of the SS Galicia, and proudly so. In his own words, published in a readily accessible online blog from 2011 in the The Combatant News, Mr. Hunka recalled, “The Polish army and the civilian population are fleeing along the road in the direction of Berezhany in a continuous stream, and German planes are catching up with them from time to time. Every day we impatiently looked in the direction of the Pomoryans [the Germans] with the hope that those mystical German knights who give 'bullets' to the hated cowards will appear."

Another quote reads, "At the call of the OUN [Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists], many joined the ranks of the UPA [Ukrainian Patriotic Army]. Others, at the call of the Ukrainian Central Committee, went as volunteers to the 'Galichyna' division. In two weeks, eighty thousand volunteers volunteered to join the division, including many students of the Berezhan Gymnasium.

Poland’s Institute of National Remembrance documents SS Galicia’s role in the Huta Pieniacka massacre, which occurred on February 28, 1944, in Nazi German-occupied Poland. This massacre involved the murder of approximately 500 Polish civilians, including women, children and the elderly, by a joint force of soldiers from the SS Galicia and other units under German command.

Further, in a speech to the soldiers of the 1st Galician Division, Heinrich Himmler, the infamous head of the SS, is quoted as saying:

Your homeland has become so much more beautiful since you have lost—on our initiative, I must say—those residents who were so often a dirty blemish on Galicia’s good name, namely the Jews...I know that if I ordered you to liquidate the Poles...I would be giving you permission to do what you are eager to do anyway.

Given historically documented examples like this, it is unfortunate that some have attempted to minimize the criminal nature of the Waffen SS by selectively using Canada’s Deschênes commission report as a sort of fig leaf. What is not often mentioned is that the Deschênes commission was limited by the scope of its investigation, which focused on identifying individuals suspected of involvement in war crimes who had emigrated to Canada after World War II. Moreover, its ability to access evidence, especially from witnesses, foreign governments and agencies was limited, given that the region was still behind the Iron Curtain at that time.

The question of whether or not Mr. Hunka himself was involved in perpetrating war crimes is not central to the debate. What we know is there is no ambiguity about the criminal nature of the SS, of which he was a voluntary member, and this historical fact cannot be dismissed as Russian disinformation.

The brutal attacks carried out by the Waffen SS units, including the Galician Division and others, such as the massacre of Poles in Volhynia and eastern Galicia, are forever part of the tragic legacy of the Second World War in what Yale historian Timothy Snyder appropriately termed the “Bloodlands.”

From the perspective of Canada’s Polish community, there is no question that a former member of the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician) should never have been recognized in the House nor, as we later learned, been invited to a reception hosted by the Prime Minister of Canada for visiting Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. This regrettable incident, which this committee has been investigating, embarrassed President Zelenskyy during his visit, damaged Canada's reputation and played right into Vladimir Putin's false narrative about modern Ukraine at a critical time in its heroic fight for survival against Russian aggression. Worst of all, it was easily avoidable. Mr. Hunka’s words, which I quoted earlier, and his association with SS Galician were readily accessible via a cursory online search.

The Canadian Polish Congress sincerely hopes that the House of Commons and the Government of Canada will reflect on this situation and leverage the significant resources at their disposal to ensure that guests it wishes to single out for recognition are properly vetted and meet our standards of human rights and dignity.

Thank you. I look forward to any questions you may have.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you for those opening comments.

We'll now enter into six-minute rounds, starting with Mr. Kmiec, followed by Mr. Duguid and then Madame Gaudreau and Ms. Mathyssen.

Mr. Kmiec, go ahead for six minutes, through the chair.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Thank you, Chair, for that.

Dzień dobry, Panie Roszak.

[English]

I will not continue in Polish, so don't worry; you won't need to do live translation from Polish to English.

First of all, Mr. Roszak, is the Canadian Polish Congress satisfied with the apologies issued so far both by the Speaker's Office and by the Prime Minister's Office?

11:05 a.m.

First Vice-President, Canadian Polish Congress

Dominik Roszak

I think it's important to focus on whether or not the historical context here was understood properly, which is why I led with that in my opening remarks. Certainly the Speaker ultimately resigned and apologized and in his resignation recognized the Jewish and Polish communities, so we appreciate that. Certainly when it comes to the other event—and I understand there was some discussion, at previous committee meetings, about a particular stakeholder involved—I hope there would still be an opportunity to get further clarity on that question.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Okay.

For the Canadian Polish Congress, what do its members think is that path forward? Is there a fixed position on how Canada and the Parliament of Canada and the Prime Minister's Office can fix the damage that's been done to their reputation?

11:10 a.m.

First Vice-President, Canadian Polish Congress

Dominik Roszak

I think the only way to do that is to openly discuss the historical context and to, frankly, engage with the communities involved, to engage with our community, with the Jewish community and with the Ukrainian community to chart our path forward from this.

Of course, as I mentioned, it's a critical time. Ukraine is fighting for its survival. Canada's Polish community and Poland have been some of the strongest allies of Ukraine in this fight, and we want to focus on that. Nevertheless we cannot ignore the importance of historical truth as the foundation of moving forward in a situation like this.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Would you then say, through you, Madam Chair, that it's fair to say that Canadians of Polish heritage in Canada and the Polish Canadian Congress are very strong supporters of Ukraine in its fight against the Russian Federation of Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin?

11:10 a.m.

First Vice-President, Canadian Polish Congress

Dominik Roszak

Absolutely.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Has the congress perhaps passed a motion indicating that support?

11:10 a.m.

First Vice-President, Canadian Polish Congress

Dominik Roszak

Yes. We, as an organization, have participated in numerous efforts, including fundraising efforts. I personally have attended almost every single rally in support of Ukraine and have spoken on behalf of the Canadian Polish Congress in support of the Ukrainian-Canadian community, Ukraine and its people in this existential fight. We are strong supporters and we will continue to be. However, moving forward, we would like to work closely with our Ukrainian-Canadian friends to chart a path forward in which these types of historical disagreements can be discussed.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

I was also going to ask you about reconciliation and how the communities can be reconciled after the damage that was done by the Prime Minister's Office and by the Speaker personally in Canada, with respect to the views that all the communities have of each other. You mentioned the Huta Pieniacka massacre. You mentioned the Polish Institute of National Remembrance and the considerable research it has done.

President Duda of Poland and President Zelenskyy, for three years before that incident, had worked on reconciliation, holding joint masses together and making joint statements to try to reconcile the two peoples to events that happened during the war. What can we do in Canada, and how could the Canadian Polish Congress help to reconcile that difficult past history?

11:10 a.m.

First Vice-President, Canadian Polish Congress

Dominik Roszak

I would love to work with communities, like the Ukrainian community, and for us to join together on this issue.

From the perspective of Parliament and the Government of Canada, it is important to allocate resources to navigate these very sensitive issues. These aren't restricted to our communities. There are other communities around the world that have difficult pasts and different perspectives on those pasts.

However, there needs to be a broader understanding amongst parliamentarians and government officials on those questions. That is where a lot of effort should go to ensure proper staffing and proper resources to be able to understand the nuances of these issues, particularly in a multicultural country like ours.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

In the case of the Parliament of Canada, what could we do on Parliament Hill to reconcile the series of events that led to Mr. Hunka being recognized, the lack of background checks, the lack of security checks and the grave error by the Prime Minister's Office and by the Speaker?

What could the Canadian Polish Congress add? You said resources, so there are things we could do here.

What could the Canadian Polish Congress help us with to achieve that goal of reconciliation and fixing this damaged reputation that Canada now has internationally?

11:10 a.m.

First Vice-President, Canadian Polish Congress

Dominik Roszak

One of the things we can do is to serve as that resource. Where there is a question that involves the Polish community, please reach out to us. We have historians, we have documentation and we have resources we can provide to assist parliamentarians in making those judgements. Certainly, we are here as a resource, as I am sure are any of the other community organizations.

There are other ways we can do that. There are two very active and great parliamentary friendship groups on the Hill, namely, the Canada-Poland Interparliamentary Friendship Group and the Canada-Ukraine Friendship Group. Perhaps there is something we can do jointly. I would suggest that would be something of worthwhile consideration going forward.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

When you mention academics and research, I think you're are familiar with the work of Wiktor Poliszczuk entitled “Dowody zbrodni OUN i UPA”, which is evidence of crimes of the OUN and UPA. It's actually a Toronto publication from 2000.

Do you have other examples of academics and researchers who have extensively written on this subject?

11:15 a.m.

First Vice-President, Canadian Polish Congress

Dominik Roszak

Yes. All of the quotes I have shared with you today are sourced. I didn't come with anything that wasn't backed up. I'm happy to share those resources with the committee and parliamentarians. I'm not a historian myself. I like to think I have a good understanding of history, but I'm not a historian. We certainly have contacts that can assist in these questions for sure.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you.

We look forward to receiving those documents. If you send them to the chair, we'll get them translated in both official languages, and share them.

That brings us now to Mr. Duguid. You have six minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Terry Duguid Liberal Winnipeg South, MB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Dzień dobry. That is the extent of my Polish. I apologize. I know a little more Ukrainian, having Ukrainian ancestry on my mother's side.

Thank you, Mr. Roszak, for appearing today and providing that historical context.

We had the Ukrainian Canadian Congress before us a few weeks ago. They provided a historical context from their vantage point. I would say there is a pretty marked difference between the points of view, which you have acknowledged in your comments.

I wonder if you have sat down with the UCC to kind of explore a common path forward, so incidents like this don't happen again. While I think everyone agrees that it was a very, very unfortunate incident that we don't want to repeat, these are learning opportunities for Canadians. Unfortunately, Canadians forget their history and the sacrifice that our armed forces made in two world wars and other conflicts around the world.

I wonder if you would provide us with a few reflections on how those two important communities, the Polish and Ukrainian communities, can perhaps help us better understand those periods in history, and move forward in a positive way.

11:15 a.m.

First Vice-President, Canadian Polish Congress

Dominik Roszak

Thank you for that great question.

Certainly, we've engaged with our friends in the Ukrainian Canadian Congress on this issue. In some cases, we just agree to disagree on certain points. It's not necessary to fully agree. However, there needs to be a forum for honest discussion of difficult issues. Since the end of the Communist era in Poland, there's been a great effort to speak honestly about historical challenges, especially given the context.

I referred to Professor Snyder's book, Bloodlands. That's appropriate because Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union perpetrated numerous crimes in the lands of eastern and central Europe and, frankly, pitted communities against each other.

However, now that Poland and Ukraine are free, and especially here in Canada where we have a commitment to multiculturalism and mutual understanding, we should really take the opportunity to lead, to have those difficult conversations. Maybe we won't come to a full consensus, but at least we'll be able to air out those difficult issues and focus on what's really important right now, whether it's for Canada or Poland or especially Ukraine, which is defeating Russia in the context of Russia's unprovoked aggression on Ukraine.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Terry Duguid Liberal Winnipeg South, MB

I have a concern that I know is shared by many. It's that the issue we're dealing with has taken a very partisan tone. There's no party that is blameless. I would note that you previously worked for the Harper government and obviously have some views.... At least formerly you were partisan.

I'm just wondering if you would have a view on how we tone down the rhetoric and again move towards solutions that I think all of us around the table can agree with. What would be your recommendations? How do we move forward in a less partisan way so that these incidents don't happen again and so that we don't give fuel to Mr. Putin and what he has been doing with this particular issue?

11:20 a.m.

First Vice-President, Canadian Polish Congress

Dominik Roszak

First, just to address that, I'm here in my capacity as an elected representative of the Canadian Polish Congress, which is a non-partisan organization. We're committed to that. In this role, I've worked with numerous MPs over the recent years, particularly the MPs for Mississauga East—Cooksville and Windsor West, your colleagues.

However, my government experience, especially in the ministry of multiculturalism, has sensitized me to these challenges and issues. Certainly, at the time, when it came to sensitive situations, I know that we always had staff to do some extra research. I think that is critical, whether it's on the political side or the public service side. Making that extra effort of having those staffing resources to delve into a greater understanding of these historically difficult issues is important. That's what I would suggest.

What makes this situation tragic is that it was preventable, from our perspective. We should seek to prevent these types of situations from happening in the future because they do not serve Canada's interests, and they inflame tensions unnecessarily.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you.

Mr. Roszak, I'm not sure what your level of French is. Madame Gaudreau will be asking questions. I would like you to take your time to hear the interpretation, if you need it, before answering. That time will not be taken away from Madame Gaudreau, just so you know. You'll perhaps see a little delay. Take your time. She will also have a little bit of a delay. It will just be part of the experience, but that time will not be taken away from either of your times to have the exchange.

11:20 a.m.

First Vice-President, Canadian Polish Congress

Dominik Roszak

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor for six minutes.