Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Go ahead, Madam Romanado.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Through you, I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here with us today.

I have a few questions for MP Roberts.

I was looking at your original submission of objection to the commission and that of the mayor of the Township of King. In the mayor's original submission, he mentioned, “I strongly encourage the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Ontario to reconsider the boundary adjustment and retain the riding's current boundary of King—Vaughan at Highway 9 to best serve the constituents of this community.”

In your submission, you do not mention going further north of Highway 9. However, in the new objection to PROC—I'm looking at it—it goes above, so you're having ward 6 in its entirety but going above the line of Highway 9. In the letter of support from your mayor, he also starts talking about going north of Highway 9. I'm a little confused about what changed between the initial submission and your submission to PROC, because from what I understand Highway 9 is a natural boundary and the communities north of Highway 9 have more of an affinity with the Holland Marsh farming community than with the ones below Highway 9.

I just wanted to ask you what changed between the time of your initial submission and that of the mayor's and your presentation today?

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

When I had conversations with the councillor—Avia Eek—and the mayor.... When they excluded her ward, the community was a little resentful. She presented to me the fact that every time there's a meeting, she's separated from King Township. The community pays taxes to King Township. They don't pay taxes to York—Simcoe or New Tecumseth. They pay taxes to King Township.

A lot of the residents who work in ward 6 also live there, but some of them live within, for instance, ward 5 or ward 4. They always feel like, who's my MP? Do I go to York—Simcoe? Do I go to King—Vaughan? They always felt separated. By adding them back into King Township.... King Township is a very exclusive township within the municipality of Toronto. It's a very slow-growing municipality. There are only 28,000 people in the whole Township of King. That ward 6 represents a lot of what King Township stands for, because the agriculture extends below Highway 9 as well as north of Highway 9.

A lot of interactions—the councillor's and the community's—also communicate with farmers just south of it. It has caused a bit of friction.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

To that, did the councillor actually submit that in the initial proposals? Did she bring that forward as a submission?

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

She brought that forward to me personally with my meeting—

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

During the time that it was open to the public to voice their opinions, did that councillor present to the commission?

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

I don't believe so.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Okay.

With respect to the change you're proposing, would that not push the variances even further out of balance? What would be the change? If we were to include that, what would be the change?

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

The change would be 1,165 people, which would mean that the new boundary of New Tecumseth would lose 1,165 people, and we would gain 1,165 people. The amount for them is 119,000 to our 118,000.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Okay. Thank you.

My colleague has some questions as well.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

My question is for Mrs. Lalonde. I won't ask any questions about the eastern border of the riding, because our ridings share a border. However, I'd like to talk about the proposal listed on the fourth slide.

What's proposed seems reasonable to me. I don't consider myself to be in Ottawa—Vanier when I'm at the White Sands golf course. I sometimes go there to work on my golf swing, which I haven't perfected yet.

Why did you redraw the orange line this way? Which aspects are significant for your community?

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much.

I thoroughly understand the committee's position, which is somewhat hesitant to let my riding keep the same population density. However, there are very important points to highlight regarding what my colleague just said, such as the meaning of the green line on the slide. That's St‑Joseph Boulevard, which is at the heart of the riding. I propose that you let us keep at least some aspects of our heritage. I'm not talking about people, but about historical plaques set up to commemorate certain things like the Orleans Fruit Farm. It's been a family farm for many generations, it's always been there and it's the only farm in Orleans.

If the committee is not ready to let us at least keep the neighbourhood of Blackburn Hamlet and the Cardinal Creek Village within the community of Orleans, it should at least let us keep what represents us and what we are proud to share, such as the St‑Joseph Boulevard Corridor. I invite you, dear colleagues, to consider it. It's about green spaces, and not people. It's about a green belt.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I won't ask my question right away. I'll start with a preamble.

I see that what you're experiencing, Mrs. Lalonde, is not what I experienced. During the consultation in Sainte‑Adèle, the proposed map was completely hacked up. Three administrative regions and six RCMs were split up, not to mention the municipalities cut in half. During the consultations, of course, there were elected officials, like you, and they received support, like you. The report we received was aligned with the logical proposals put forward, and it respected communities of interest.

I'm happy for me, but saddened for you. Why make things complicated when they can be simple? As we said, it's about knowing which office to go to for paying one's taxes and meeting one's provincial MP, for instance. At the same time, doing it that way means it's not necessary to hold more meetings. This moves me, because I'm not in the same position as you. I'd like to hear your comments on that.

Was there a step skipped in the process, for you? Currently, you would need a consultation to get another proposal and prepare a preliminary report for it.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much for the question.

I don't want to be too critical of the process, but I sent proposals twice. Furthermore, the report refers to the strong opposition voiced during public consultations. In spite of that, the commission made no compromises.

It upheld its decision, in spite of the fact that a municipal elected official also came forward. There were countless letters. An Ottawa-Vanier school trustee even shared their profound wish not to include Blackburn Hamlet in Ottawa-Vanier. The commissioner mentioned it in the report. Nonetheless, strong community opposition and mobilization were not taken into account.

What I'm proposing today is to recognize that people took action. I'm here to represent them. In the decision, at least let us keep what belongs to us, such as the farm and the Greenbelt. Leave us the spaces that represent Orleans. It's really important to us.

Opposition from all those people who mobilized during the entirety of the commission's process fell on deaf ears, in spite of it all. That's what bothers me a little.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you.

I'd like to remind everyone that the purpose of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs is to compile information from your surroundings. That said, we can always hope there will be redefinitions. As I say at every meeting, if you have supporting documents pertaining to the initial consultation, it's important to attach them to the report.

Since I still have a bit of time left, I'd like to talk about the criteria for electoral redistribution, which are at the heart of the matter. If we grant very high priority to the electoral quota, we dismiss communities. The same applies to demographic shifts.

I'm focusing a lot on you, Mrs. Lalonde, but I can tell you about a similar situation in the riding of Blainville-Mirabel. People wondered why a very agricultural area and an urban area would be split up, even though they have a feeling of belonging.

Ms. Sahota, since you also sit on the Standing Committee of Procedure and House Affairs, I ask you to make your voice heard and help us reflect on our criteria, not just the steps to go through, and avoid having this happen again in 10 years.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you.

We definitely had other witnesses come before this committee throughout this process and mention a feeling of disenfranchisement with the second step of this process. The first step allowed the public to come before the commission to make statements. However, if the second version ends up deviating so far from what the first version is, you couldn't possibly predict that outcome in order to proactively come in during the first stage to make your points heard. That's definitely happened in my scenario, and I know that's happened for many members who have come before PROC.

I believe there should be some form of public consultation that takes place after the second version comes out, in addition to this process here at PROC. We have seen that this process here at PROC—no offence to the committee—is not often yielding successful results. There should be something else.

Plus, the public should be made more aware of the process to begin with. Even in the first step, there were many people in my community—a highly immigrant population—who had no idea the consultations even took place.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Blaney, we'll go to you.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Hello, Chair.

I will not take up a lot of time today. I have only one question for Ms. Sahota.

I appreciate your bringing forward the concern of the community of Springdale.

I guess maybe I missed something. I do know there is an additional seat that will be added to Brampton. Are you recommending that Springdale belong to a particular riding, or are you saying it shouldn't be broken up and you're leaving it to the commission to make the decision?

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Blaney.

I went back and forth with this, but I decided in the end that I didn't want to be overly prescriptive to the commission, because I know they have a lot of heavy lifting to do. I am, at this point, regardless of what my personal preference may be, just advocating for the constituents in the neighbourhood of Springdale so that they remain together as a united voice.

They do have particular concerns and political interests, and I think it is easier for them to navigate the system if they know they have one member of Parliament. Currently, as it is situated, there is one city councillor, one regional councillor and one provincial representative as well. They have always had one member of Parliament, so I think that should continue to be the case, and that's what I'm arguing here today.

There is a new riding being formed in the area. It would not just belong to Brampton. It would be shared with Dufferin—Caledon, so it would straddle two different municipalities.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

That's the only question I have, Chair. I have no problems with any one of the other MPs' interventions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We'll go for a second round, because I know there are questions that remain.

Ms. Gladu.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'll go back to Ms. Sahota. How many people live in Springdale?