Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 6th, 2023

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Mr. Johnston, I was comforted, in a sense, by the fact that you invited scrutiny into the findings of your own report by giving the opportunity for all parties represented on NSICOP and the security and intelligence experts through NSIRA to review your findings. You've also said today multiple times, and I know it's in your report as well, that opposition leaders were invited and you encouraged them to review the facts in the annex of your report.

I take it from Ms. Dancho's comments that she thinks your calling something “false” is a criticism. I think that's just a commitment to the truth.

It seems you must be quite confident—in your findings and the conclusions that you've drawn from the facts, within the context—that other parties and individuals whom you've invited to scrutinize your findings would land on the same conclusions. How confident are you?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

What I would say, Madam Chair, is that we did the best we possibly could in the two months we had to follow the facts as far as we could and apply the law.

We welcome the scrutiny, the overview of the two committees you referred to, joined by the leaders of the major opposition parties. I think that's appropriate and that's how these things should work. Our work should be held accountable, as it is being here. It will be held accountable by committees that have expertise in this and have been working at it for very long.

With respect to the media, we do say in our report that we're not casting any aspersions at the media. Freedom of press is very important in this country and we would be in chaos if we didn't have it, especially with respect to the rule of law.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you for that.

I know that you must have had security clearance at the highest level in order to be able to review the intelligence documents within the context in which you formulated your conclusions in your report. Were you impeded in any way in speaking publicly about your opinions about the government taking action or not taking action as a result of having that security clearance?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

The answer to that question, Madam Chair, is no. We were not impeded. In fact, we worked very carefully to try to write a report that would put as much light as we could on this matter but still respect classified information. There was no impediment to that. We were very pleased to be able to push those boundaries a little bit more than they ordinarily would be in a public report.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

One of the things that I spent considerable time doing is reviewing all the things that our government has done on foreign interference since 2015. I've heard time and time again people make claims that are false, that the government hasn't done anything.

In your report, you spend a considerable number of pages on that—I think it's roughly page 30 to 49, so almost 20 pages of the report—and you conclude that:

While more can and must be done to strengthen our ability to detect and deter foreign interference, the extent of the government's policy initiatives and regular communications on the topic contradicts suggestions that the government intended to hide the existence of foreign interference, that it has negligently failed to act on it, or that it tolerated foreign interference.

Can you confirm again that it's not true that our government did nothing on foreign interference?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, we set out a series of initiatives that had been taken, principally from about 2017 on. Russian influence was the main concern then; Chinese influence became that. There clearly was important activity. The concern is that the activity was not fast enough to catch up with the growing foreign interference, which continues.

What we have done in setting this out is also attempting to create a menu of other initiatives that should take place, some of which we expect to review in our public hearings, to continue this job of being much more aggressive in recognizing the nature of the flip and then taking the prompt steps to counter it, deter it and deal with it in an adequate fashion.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

If I may just follow up on that, I know that at some point—and I don't remember exactly where it was—you had admitted that your assumption leading into your work as special rapporteur was that you would likely land on a public inquiry, and yet you didn't. You landed on public hearings.

Can you explain why?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, a public inquiry would duplicate the work that we attempted to do, especially dealing with classified information. Any public inquiry is going to run into that same problem: How do you deal with classified information in an open fashion and report upon it?

Our view is that you could do that particularly in the area of reforming our systems, looking at them carefully and thoughtfully, drawing the best expertise you can, reinforcing the oversight committees, building on a better system of managing foreign interference and taking lessons from other jurisdictions, especially the Five Eyes, which have had considerable experience in dealing with exactly these challenges.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

This brings us almost to the end. What we are going to do is give five minutes to Mr. Brock, followed by five minutes to Ms. O'Connell.

Mr. Therrien will have two and a half minutes and Mr. Julien two minutes.

Mr. Brock, five minutes go to you.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll be splitting my time with my colleague Mr. Chong.

Mr. Johnston, aside from Navigator, are there any other individuals or entities assisting you currently?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, I've received informal advice from a number of people, including professionals, but no one has been paid for their services apart from Navigator.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

Are Don Guy and Brian Topp, or anyone else from GT and Company, involved with assisting you?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Yes, those two individuals have provided advice to me, which was quite welcome.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay. Was it both individuals, Mr. Guy and Mr. Topp?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Yes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

When did that start?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, I think that started about 10 days ago, as I recall.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

Are you still receiving advice?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Yes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

Is there anyone else from GT and Company whom you've spoken to about foreign interference?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

No, I think not, Madam Chair.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay.

Are you paying Mr. Guy and Mr. Topp for their services and advice?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Not at all, Madam Chair, nor are we paying for any of the other informal advice I'm receiving from a number of quarters.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

At least three times, Mr. Johnston, you've misquoted sections of your report in response to various questions from members of all parties. It begs the question, sir, of who actually wrote this report.

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, the answer is that I wrote the report, and had considerable advice from a very competent legal team.