Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 13th, 2023

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Do we have an exact timeline, Mark?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

We'd have to come back with that exact timeline, but you would have seen very public visibility of our police officers in uniform at those locations. That was the disrupting action that caused them to shut down their activities.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you for that.

When the Prime Minister's national security adviser Jody Thomas last appeared before this committee on June 1, she said she was aware of at least two illegal police stations in Montreal. She said, “work is being done to ensure that they cease to operate.” By that, she said they are still operating.

Can you help me understand what you just said—that all illegal police activities have been shut down—versus what she said—that efforts are being taken in the case of two police stations to see that they cease to operate, and presumably those illegal activities?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Madam Chair, as I mentioned earlier, based on the criminal intelligence we have and the work that's been going on, we are comfortable saying that the activities in these locations have been shut down. At the moment when the NSA was here, I'm not quite sure what stage we were at. I'm comfortable saying that, at this point in time, they are shut down. Investigations are continuing into these overseas police stations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

I want to thank you for that exchange, because I think it was a very good tone and pace, and it should set an example.

Go ahead, Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thanks to both Mr. Duheme and Mr. Flynn for being here today. I appreciate your service to Canada and keeping us all safe. I'm sure you're doing your utmost in that every day, and we appreciate it.

I have a few questions.

How many investigations would you say are under way with regard to foreign interference? If you could give me a general number, even a ballpark, I'd be happy.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Madam Chair, I'd be venturing, even if it's just a ballpark.

I'm more than happy to come back, unless Deputy Commissioner Flynn has an exact number. Even for a rough estimate, I'd be guessing right now. I'd be more than happy to come back with a number.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

We would appreciate it very much if you could get back to the committee.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

If I may, Madam Chair, Mark just informed me we have 100-plus files on interference.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Wow.

Have any charges been laid to date, Mr. Duheme or Mr. Flynn?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I'll take it back to May 2022. At Hydro-Québec in the province of Quebec, there was an employee charged with several interference offences under his role.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

In terms of the Criminal Code, which you mentioned, Mr. Duheme, in your opening remarks.... There are several offences that you cited. Do you feel there are any amendments to the Criminal Code that are needed, or do you have the offences under the Criminal Code you need to place charges on these matters?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Madam Chair, I think that, when you ask the question to any law enforcement—whether they have enough tools in the Criminal Code—they will say no.

I would say that we welcome additional tools to help us with this growing phenomenon, if you wish, which is foreign interference.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Are there any criminal offences that you can foresee but that are not currently included in the Criminal Code and that, if added, would aid in your ability to combat these efforts?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I don't have any that come to mind just yet, but I know there's a team working on what we can do to improve the Criminal Code with additional charges or measures.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Would you be able to get back to the committee with any suggestions you have on Criminal Code amendments?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Yes, I will do that, Madam Chair.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Mr. Johnston, in his report—which I'm sure everyone has read at this point—talks about shortcomings in terms of the machinery of government and the flow of intelligence from CSIS, both up to the political level and, probably, shared with other law enforcement agencies.

Do you have any recommendations for how that flow of information could be improved, from the RCMP's perspective? I'm sure this aids in your ability to undertake investigations, and I'm sure you need that information. Could you tell us anything you can recommend in terms of improvements?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

In terms of improvements, we'll work collaboratively with the other government departments to ensure there's strong governance and the proper flow of information. I would say, purely from an operational perspective, that the question of intel and evidence, which you've probably heard many times before, is one key area we wish we could land on, because that impedes some of the flow of information from the service to not only other partners but also international partners, as well.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

Maybe I could ask you this question.

You mentioned an operational review, if I'm not mistaken, in your opening remarks.

Would you be able to table any of the recommendations from your operational review that would aid in that intelligence-to-evidence issue? We've heard about this gap being an ongoing or systemic problem.

Can you table that, and can you also highlight one or two things that you think would improve your ability to move intelligence to evidence?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Madam Chair, I'll have to verify what can be released from that document. Obviously, if we can release the entire document, for sure we will release it.

It has recommendations that highlight the wonderful work that the service and the RCMP have done since 2008 to address some of the concerns that were raised by both departments.

Again, with regard to intel to evidence, it is probably the biggest one that we've been working on, with PPSC as well, to see how we can move this forward.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

I have one last question for you, Mr. Duheme.

In the past, you talked about having a national security strategy, if I'm not mistaken, and I wonder how we balance the need to protect our democratic institutions while also ensuring that Canadians' rights aren't infringed upon. How does a national security strategy get that balance right, from your perspective?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Madam Chair, it is sometimes challenging getting that right balance, to ensure that the public trusts law enforcement security agencies in the country to make sure we are transparent in our approach.

I'll be honest. What we were facing for the last couple of years on foreign interference is something we were not facing in years. We didn't know as much as we know today, so it's a matter of adjusting our strategy, as well, to counter what we're seeing today.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

Madam Chair, do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

[Inaudible—Editor]