Evidence of meeting #84 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was csis.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tricia Geddes  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Michel Juneau-Katsuya  Former Chief of the Asia-Pacific Unit, Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual
Daniel Jean  Former National Security and Intelligence Advisor to the Prime Minister, As an Individual

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Good morning, everyone.

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 84 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

The committee is meeting today to study the question of privilege related to the member for Wellington—Halton Hills and other members.

As always, if you're using your earpiece, keep it in your ear or keep it out, but please don't let it interfere with the microphones.

All comments should go through the chair. As always, I do feel that it's going to be a faster-paced meeting, so I would like to maximize your time. I will remind you that the question of privilege related to the member for Wellington—Halton Hills and other members is the reason we're here. I would appreciate our staying relevant so that I don't have to be interrupting. I would really appreciate minimizing the number of comments I have to make. I would just like for us to be able to go from member to member and to maximize the time with the minister.

With that, we have with us the Honourable Marco Mendicino, Minister of Public Safety, alongside the associate deputy minister, Tricia Geddes, from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.

Minister, you will have up to 10 minutes for opening comments. I would just remind you that there are two official languages so maintain a good pace for the interpreters.

With that, thank you for replying to us so quickly and for being here.

Welcome to PROC.

11:05 a.m.

Eglinton—Lawrence Ontario

Liberal

Marco Mendicino LiberalMinister of Public Safety

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Good morning, everyone.

First, I would like to acknowledge the presence of my associate deputy minister for public safety, Tricia Geddes, and to begin by thanking all of the people who get up every day to protect our country's democratic institutions, the people who work with them and all Canadians. The security of Canada's democracy is of paramount importance, and the safety and security of our national institutions is thanks to them.

Foreign interference has become an increasingly pervasive threat to democracies worldwide.

Hostile actors, such as Russia, the People's Republic of China, the PRC, and the Iranian regime, continue their attempts to undermine our national interests and to threaten Canadian security.

This is not a new phenomenon, but the challenges surrounding foreign interference have become more complex and insidious and are constantly evolving. That is why our government has taken strong action since forming government in 2015.

Madam Chair, let me explain to the committee the four pillars that underpin our plan to combat foreign interference: prevention, protection, accountability and transparency.

First, all good strategies must start with prevention.

The Digital Citizen Initiative is designed to strengthen democracy and social inclusion in Canada by developing citizen resilience to foreign interference and online disinformation and by establishing partnerships to support a healthy information ecosystem.

Among the initiatives funded through the DCI is the Canadian Digital Media Research Network, which is undertaking activities to help Canadians become more resilient and to think critically about the information they consume online.

Within the federal government, my predecessor, Minister Blair, issued a letter to all parliamentarians in 2020 providing information and resource support to them. As you know, Madam Chair, CSIS continues to provide briefings to parliamentarians to better understand how to protect themselves and their offices from foreign interference.

Second, we are increasing protection. We're mobilizing new tools and resources to ensure the safety of Canadians including parliamentarians. This includes most recently increasing funding for the RCMP by $48.9 million to protect Canadians from harassment and intimidation by foreign actors, to increase its investigative capacity and to proactively support communities most at risk of being targeted.

We're also working with the Sergeant-at-Arms and the PPS here on the Hill to provide more security for parliamentarians and their staff and we have recently established a new national counter-foreign interference coordinator, which is being headed out of my department at Public Safety Canada.

Third, we are making sure we hold hostile actors more accountable.

The RCMP reported that it had shut down foreign interference activities relating to the so‑called police stations and that it was conducting some 100 investigations into the matter. The RCMP will be on the lookout for any future threats.

My colleague Ms. Joly recently expelled a foreign diplomat and is also implementing a system of sanctions against the Iranian regime. We will continue to use all government resources at our disposal to force hostile actors to account.

Also, we are pursuing, as you know, the creation of a foreign influence transparency registry. We have concluded the official public consultation phase of that exercise, in particular working with and engaging diaspora communities so that we can create this new tool in the right way.

Finally, we know that transparency is fundamental to countering foreign interference and to building the trust and confidence of Canadians. We're taking lessons and recommendations from the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians.

I've already mentioned two very concrete examples, which I am leading, of the implementation of those recommendations, through the creation of a national coordinator to combat foreign interference, as well as the creation of the foreign influence transparency regime. There's also NSIRA and most recently, the work that was completed by the Right Honourable David Johnston in his first report. It's a report that lays out a path forward to continue, through a public exercise, the engagement of Canadians so that they better understand how it is our national security establishment is equipped to fight against foreign interference.

Our government and our national security agencies being more open than ever about the threats we are facing is the best way to protect and strengthen our democracy.

Of course, we know that foreign interference has an impact well beyond our elections and elected officials. All facets of Canadian society need to be protected from this potential threat. When individuals in Canada are subjected to intimidation, harassment or manipulation by foreign states or their proxies, these activities are a threat to our sovereignty and to the safety of all Canadians. They will never be tolerated. Law enforcement will independently take the appropriate actions that are necessary.

With several federal by-elections fast approaching, the security and intelligence threats to elections task force has been activated to ensure the protection of our electoral processes. When it comes to our economy and society writ large, we know that academic institutions, energy and technological sectors and many others are a vector for this threat.

All of these measures and investments follow the principles of prevention, protection, accountability and transparency that I mentioned earlier. And they transcend political and partisan lines. All members of Parliament share a moral imperative to uphold our country’s institutions and to keep our constituents, and their fellow citizens, safe.

We know that threats to democratic institutions persist, such as foreign interference and disinformation, but I want to reassure all members of this committee and in Parliament, and, indeed, Canadians that our government will continue to take all of the steps that are necessary to mitigate those threats to our national security landscape, including by tackling foreign interference.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you, Minister.

We will enter into six-minute rounds, starting with Mr. Cooper,

who will be followed by Mr. Fergus and Ms. Michaud,

and then Mrs. Blaney.

Mr. Cooper, you have six minutes through the chair.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister and Associate Deputy Minister, for appearing this morning.

Through you, Madam Chair, to the minister, the director of CSIS, when he appeared at committee on Tuesday, confirmed that the issues management note of CSIS that warned that MP Chong and his family were being targeted by the Beijing regime was sent to the deputy minister of public safety.

What happened once it reached the deputy minister?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Madam Chair, I want to thank my colleague for the question.

As you said, Mr. Cooper, you heard the CSIS director indicate his intentions about that memo. You also heard very clearly from my predecessor, the public safety minister at the time, Minister Blair, that he did not receive that memo.

What I can assure you, Mr. Cooper, and the members of this committee, is that through the ministerial directive that I have recently signed off on, we have strengthened the ability of elected officials to be briefed on these issues—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Minister, I asked a specific question. If you can't answer it, that's fine. Just say you can't answer it.

What happened once the memo reached the deputy minister of public safety?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

What I can tell you is, very clearly, the intention of the CSIS director, and the fact that Minister Blair did not receive that memo, that has been addressed through the ministerial directive that I have implemented.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

It was sent to your deputy minister, so have you instructed your department to open an investigation to find out what happened to that memo once it reached public safety, yes or no?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Madam Chair, we have addressed this issue through the ministerial directive, which requires CSIS to directly brief me where there's foreign interference with parliamentarians, as well as the Prime Minister.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

I take it from your answer that the answer to that question is no.

Through you, Madam Chair, Minister, when you last appeared before this committee on April 27, you said, unequivocally, and without qualification, “the RCMP has shut down the so-called police stations”.

We now know that isn't true, at least as of April 27, when you appeared before this committee. The Beijing United Front Work Department organizations that host two illegal police stations in Montreal have said that no action has been taken against them. Jody Thomas, the Prime Minister's national security and intelligence adviser, told this committee on June 1, when asked how many illegal police stations are still operating, “We are aware of two in Montreal, and work is being done to ensure that they cease to operate.” That means they were still operating as of June 1 contrary to what you said on April 27.

Why did you tell this committee the opposite of what is true?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Madam Chair, the first thing I want to make abundantly clear to members of this committee is that the RCMP have consistently said that they have been on top of this issue by disrupting foreign interference activities in relation to the so-called police stations. Madam Chair, as you know, that does not mean there may not be future efforts, but I am confident that, on the basis of the authorities and of the resources that we have provided to the RCMP, they will be vigilant. You've heard, most recently, from Commissioner Duheme, who appeared before this committee himself to confirm that the foreign interference activities in regard to these so-called police stations will continue to be disrupted in a timely way.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Minister, with the greatest respect, through you, Madam Chair, you can't talk your way out of this. You made a statement on April 27. You didn't provide any qualifications. It was an unequivocal declaration that all of the illegal police stations were closed.

Jody Thomas, when she appeared before this committee, contradicted exactly what you said. I did listen to the RCMP when they appeared before this committee two days ago. Upon pressing the RCMP, they appeared to acknowledge that at least one of the stations is still operating, and an investigation is under way with respect to the other in Montreal.

You provided this committee with inaccurate and incomplete information in what I would submit, with the greatest respect, was a deliberate attempt to mislead this committee and to mislead Canadians about illegal police stations operated by Beijing on Canadian soil.

Respectfully, Minister, how can anyone believe anything you say?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I stand by my statements before this committee. The RCMP have been clear and consistent in regard to these foreign activities in relation to the so-called police stations.

Madam Chair, I encourage all members of this committee to continue to listen to the RCMP, because they are providing timely, accurate briefings. They carry out those operations in a manner that is independent from the government, but I am confident that the government has provided the RCMP with the tools, the resources and the authorities that are necessary to deal with these foreign interference activities.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you for that.

Minister, you mislead this committee, and that's a fact. I would submit no one can believe anything you say.

How many arrests have been made in connection with Beijing's illegal police stations? Just give a number.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Madam Chair, I'm pleased to reiterate what Commissioner Duheme told this committee just a couple of days ago, I believe, which is that they are advancing approximately 100 investigations in regard to foreign interference.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

I asked the question: How many arrests have been made? You know the answer to that, Minister. The fact that you're unwilling to say it, I think, speaks volumes to your unwillingness to come here and to answer straightforward questions.

How many have been arrested? Just give a number.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Madam Chair, I have a couple of points because I want to be responsive to my colleague's question.

First, the fact that there are 100 investigations ongoing—

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

The answer to that, Minister, is zero—zero arrests.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

—reflects how serious this is. Second is the fact that the—

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

I'm going to pause.

Mr. Cooper, I was actually going to give you back the floor because the beep went off and I'm like, “He's kind of hearing what I'm saying.” It has taken a bunch of meetings but we're getting there—awesome, high-fives—I'll throw you back the floor. I'll get you to get one more question in and we'll go on our way. We hear the beep, beep, beep. You know what my reaction is going to be, and then it's almost like you like it.

I find that odd, but every one got the show. We feel better. Great.

Minister Mendicino, the floor is yours, and then I'll be going to Mr. Fergus.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Thank you very much. I'll try to be concise in my response, Madam Chair.

First, the fact that there are 100 ongoing RCMP investigations into foreign interference shows they're taking this matter seriously. If there are arrests, obviously they will be updated by the RCMP, but lastly, let's not underestimate the value of the ability and the capacity to disrupt those activities, which is precisely what the RCMP has done in regard to the so-called police stations.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

The number is zero.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Mr. Fergus.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Minister and Madam Deputy Minister, thank you for appearing before us today.

My question will actually be regarding the police stations.

We had the RCMP come here and they testified that they have disrupted the illegal activities at these locations, but they added an important caveat. The caveat was that these buildings and locations are still there and that there are other activities that are perfectly normal and perfectly appropriate that go on at those locations. So to say that we've shut them down would be an overstatement. It would be to say that those activities have been shut down.

Do I have a correct reading on that, Minister? Do you have anything further to add on that?