Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 26th, 2023

[Erin O'Toole]

No.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Okay.

This is where I'm going to pick on your experience as a parliamentarian and former leader. Do you have any suggestions on how we can better prepare and educate all parliamentarians and our staff on foreign interference?

[Erin O'Toole]

Well, I would recommend that all personnel on Parliament Hill watch the 60 Minutes episode with CSIS director David Vigneault and his colleagues from the Five Eyes. The interference takes place with institutions, with diaspora communities and with political issue developments. Political interference could start with nomination races; it's not just here once somebody is elected.

It's also in the economy. I talked about.... One of my last press conferences as leader was on Neo Lithium and the takeover by a Chinese state-controlled entity. People didn't seem concerned, because the mines of this Canadian company were in South America. Our allies don't want China to control critical minerals. Just last week in the Globe and Mail, there's another copper property that's owned by a Canadian entity....

I think parliamentarians need to be briefed on the impacts for our economy, our military alliances and our role in the Pacific, in the South China Sea Islands. We have ships of the Royal Canadian Navy in the Taiwan Strait that have been surveilled. They also need to know about political interference for diaspora groups and for parliamentarians for elections.

As I've said, since 2017 it's gotten worse, and it's gotten more aggressive—this so-called wolf warrior diplomacy. I think we're playing catch-up. I think the Canada-China committee, when I moved that with the support of the party leader at the time, was meant to kind of wake us up. The U.S. now has a standing China committee in Congress.

I do think that there need to be regular briefings and more interactions with our security and intelligence agencies on all parts of this dynamic relationship. As Mr. Vigneault said on 60 Minutes on the weekend, even property purchases and things in Canada are being tracked, because China plays the long game. We have to start playing it as well.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

In your opinion, then, Mr. O'Toole, do you think we have the necessary tools in place, the infrastructure and the resources...? Are we in a better place today as a result of all the conversations we've been having?

[Erin O'Toole]

That's a great question.

I think we're getting towards a better place. I think some of the tough questions, some of the tough answers that you probably feel I'm giving, are part of what I said in my speech. We were the frog in the pot and we didn't notice how hot the water was getting until, really, the two Michaels, and I added a Michael. I think now Canadians know.

We still have to find the balance from an economy standpoint. It's not easy, but equipping parliamentarians, protecting parliamentarians, I think should be central to a non-partisan approach.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We will now enter into our last and final six-minute round, starting with Mr. Calkins. He will be followed by Mr. Baines and then Madame Gaudreau, and we will end with Madame Blaney.

Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It's great to see you, Mr. O'Toole.

I want to get back to your comments about the SITE task force. As you know, both Mr. Soliman and Ms. Michaud appeared before this committee. Can you confirm that, during the 2021 election, the SITE task force actually did provide regular briefings to your representatives? That's, at least, what they claimed.

Did we actually receive those briefings? If we did, were they useful?

[Erin O'Toole]

Thank you, Mr. Calkins. It's nice to see you, as well.

We did receive briefings. The structure of the program functioned, but I think its effectiveness is wanting. What Mr. Soliman told me.... As I said, I delegated this to him and in part, a little bit, to Tausha Michaud, my chief of staff, because I trusted that they would brief me.

I was hearing from candidates on the ground—particularly from Mr. Chiu, but also from in and around the riding of Bob Saroya in the Markham area—that there was a lot of activity in WeChat and some in-store and in-person intimidation.

Our polling numbers were off the charts, yet the results didn't come back. If people are scared to vote, they're not going to show up. We were reporting incidents that we were hearing from the ground. Mr. Soliman and Ms. Michaud told me that they always had the impression that they were being listened to but not heard.

We wanted, at some point, for the threshold—as Ms. Blaney referred to it as—to be met, for at least a warning to be given with respect to certain social media channels, WeChat in particular.

I have been told that there are over 600,000 Canadians in British Columbia alone who use that tool as their primary communications and news reception device. I'm sure that my colleagues from the fourth estate behind me don't like hearing that, but a lot of people get their news from WeChat and Facebook. If that was being corrupted, we needed to warn people to just take a second look. That warning never came.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Cabinet ministers have come before this committee—some are former cabinet ministers now—speaking about the robustness of the system that they put in place. However, up until recently, at least, not one public notice was ever issued—during the election in 2021, specifically, because that was the election you were the leader in. There was not one expulsion of a diplomat until well after this became a public fiasco.

To this day and to my knowledge, still not one charge has been laid. To my knowledge, nobody from the SITE task force or any of our agencies has claimed that they've interdicted or stopped the promulgation of any false information from a foreign state actor. The message that there's a robust system and the results don't measure up.

Can you speak about whether or not you actually believe that this was taken as seriously as it ought to have been? I do have another follow-up question, so please keep this as brief as possible. I believe that our intelligence agencies collected the information, but somebody somewhere had to make a decision. Who failed to make the decision, Mr O'Toole?

[Erin O'Toole]

The critical election protocol process is not robust. It is a failure. That is demonstrated by the news stories afterwards. It's demonstrated, in part, by the manner in which the Rosenberg report was conducted. Ms. Thomas, when she came to this committee, even said that our party was given a robust response to our concerns, but that was incorrect. She never sent the letter to us.

So, we have key ministers of the Crown not checking emails, not reading intelligence briefs, and we have a national security adviser mistakenly suggesting that our concerns were responded to. We're a G7 country. We know this is happening. There needs to be seriousness and accountability.

This is why I think Madame Hogue should also look at decisions on threshold, as per Ms. Blaney's question. Why weren't we briefed before 2021 on the 2019 funding of 11 ridings? Mr. Soliman wanted.... He said specifically to the panel that they wanted to keep Mr. O'Toole away from fundraisers where there might be influence.

They couldn't or wouldn't tell us that it was happening. Certainly, they didn't tell us that 11 candidates had been funded in 2019. “Colossal failure” might be the best description of the process.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you.

Madam Chair, I'm going to cede the rest of my time to Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I will be moving the following motion:

That, in relation to its order of reference of Wednesday, May 10, 2023, concerning the intimidation campaign orchestrated by Wei Zhao against the Member for Wellington—Halton Hills and other Members, and in relation to its study on foreign election interference, the Committee

(a) acknowledge the failure of officials in the Prime Minister's Office and the Liberal Party of Canada to provide relevant information to this Committee that they had indicated they would undertake to provide;

(b) order the production, within three weeks, of all documents which contains the names of:

(i) the Liberal Party campaign manager for the electoral district of Don Valley North in the 2019 federal general election,

(ii) the campaign manager for the 2019 nomination campaign of Han Dong for the Liberal Party nomination in the electoral district of Don Valley North, and

(iii) the field organizers and senior Liberal Party officials responsible for the Greater Toronto Area and/or the City of Toronto during and leading up to the 2019 federal general election;

(c) direct the analysts and clerk to prepare, for the members of the Committee, within three weeks, a report on all undertakings given by witnesses who have appeared during these studies and the status of those undertakings, other than the undertakings referred to in paragraph (b);

(d) direct the clerk to contact any witness who has not completely satisfied any undertaking referred to in the report prepared under paragraph (c)—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm going to pause for two reasons.

First of all, everybody has stated on the record, at one point or another, that the interpreters are important for the work we do, because we have two official languages.

I know you have shared the motion with the clerk. The clerk has circulated it, but the interpreters don't have the wording. I don't think it's very complicated for us, when moving a motion, to ask that it be circulated, then you get the floor back. We've done this on numerous occasions.

The second concern I would like to raise is that Mr. O'Toole had asked that he be able to leave by quarter after 12. We know other people have additional questions. This is now the third time Conservatives have felt they can use their round, but other people can't ask their questions.

I feel we can do multiple things at the same time. Therefore, I am going to pause to make sure the interpreters get the motion. The floor is Mr. Cooper's, but I would welcome comments from other parties as to whether they would like their time, or whether we should be seeing the witness able to leave.

I would like those comments, but I will pause to make sure the interpreters have it. I'll take a thumbs-up when they have it.

I don't see their having it yet. We're going to make sure the interpreters have it, then we'll get Mr. Cooper back.

I will do a quick round to find out where colleagues are at, because we work on a consensus basis.

This motion, Mr. O'Toole, as you know, was something all people have worked together to get to.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You're interrupting a motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Yes. The interpreters don't have it, so I'm pausing.

Thank you.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

I have a point of order.

Are we still on pause?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

The interpreters have it.

Mr. Cooper, you were in paragraph (d).

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Yes. It reads:

(d) direct the clerk to contact any witness who has not completely satisfied any undertaking referred to in the report prepared under paragraph (c) to request that it be satisfied within two weeks of the clerk's request; and

(e) order the production, within three weeks, of

(i) the July 2021 CSIS report entitled “People's Republic of China Foreign Interference in Canada: A Critical National Security Threat” and the May 2021 CSIS issues management note sent to the then-Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness respecting the Beijing regime's intention to target Members of this House, together with all records concerning the transmission to, distribution within, analysis of and handling by, the Prime Minister's Office, the Privy Council Office, the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, the Department of National Defence and the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, of this report, and

(ii) all other memoranda, briefing notes, e-mails, records of conversations, and any other relevant documents, including any drafts, which are in the possession of any government department or agency, including the Security and Intelligence Threats to Elections Task Force, the Critical Election Incident Protocol Panel, any minister's office, and the Prime Minister's Office, containing information concerning

(A) planning or efforts by, or on behalf of, foreign governments or other foreign state actors to intimidate a Member of the House of Commons, or

(B) the matters raised by the Honourable Erin O'Toole in the House of Commons on Tuesday, May 30, 2023, and before the Committee on Thursday, October 26, 2023,

provided that

(iii) these documents be deposited without redaction, in both official languages, with the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel,

(iv) a copy of the documents shall also be deposited, in both official languages, with the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, with any proposed redaction of information which, in the government's opinion, could reasonably be expected to compromise the identities of employees or sources or intelligence-collecting methods of Canadian or allied intelligence agencies,

(v) the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel shall promptly notify the Committee whether the Office is satisfied that the documents were produced as ordered, and, if not, the Chair shall be instructed to present forthwith, on behalf of the Committee, a report to the House outlining the material facts of the situation,

(vi) the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel shall assess the redactions proposed by the government, pursuant to paragraph (iv), to determine whether the Office agrees that the proposed redactions conform with the criteria set out in paragraph (iv) and

(A) if it agrees, it shall provide the documents, as redacted by the government pursuant to paragraph (iv), to the Clerk of the Committee, or

(B) if it disagrees with some or all of the proposed redactions, it shall provide a copy of the documents, redacted in the manner the Office determines would conform with the criteria set out in paragraph (iv), together with a report indicating the number, extent and nature of the government's proposed redactions which were disagreed with, to the Clerk of the Committee, and

(vii) the clerk of the committee shall cause the redacted documents, provided by the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel pursuant to paragraph (vi), to be distributed to the members of the committee.

With that, Madam Chair, I will make brief remarks. It is necessary to bring this motion forward because Mr. O'Toole is the last witness to appear before this committee on the question of privilege study pertaining to MP Chong. Despite the fact that Mr. O'Toole is our last witness, as a result of the NDP-Liberal cover-up coalition, this committee has not received the production of relevant documents on the question of privilege, despite our efforts to get those records. This motion is necessary as a result.

We need these documents to know who knew what when and what happened to warnings by CSIS that MPs—including MP Chong, MP O'Toole and MP Kwan—were being targeted by the Beijing regime. We need to know how a memo from CSIS flagged for high importance warning that MP Chong and his family in Hong Kong were being targeted by Beijing went into a black hole despite the fact that it had been sent to the then-minister of public safety Bill Blair, his chief of staff Zita Astravas, and the then-deputy minister of public safety.

Multiple ministers have come before this committee, and no one has taken responsibility for this colossal failure, this breakdown in the machinery of government. On the contrary, instead of accepting ministerial responsibility, we saw the spectacle, at our last meeting, of Minister Blair throwing everyone but himself under the bus—everyone from the director of CSIS to his deputy minister to other officials. This is the same minister who couldn't be bothered to literally go down the hall to go to the secure terminal where he would have found the memo that warned that MP Chong and his family were being targeted. Incredibly Minister Blair didn't bother to go down the hall because he was so asleep at the switch that he didn't know the location of the terminal, despite its being literally down the hall on the same floor as his office. That's the degree to which Minister Blair has not taken seriously national security and Beijing's interference or the safety and security of members of Parliament and their families.

For months the NDP-Liberal cover-up coalition has blocked the production of documents. That begs the question: What are they hiding? Who are they protecting? We know who the NDP-Liberal cover-up coalition are ultimately protecting. They're protecting an incompetent and corrupt Prime Minister who has refused to take responsibility for turning a blind eye to Beijing's interference despite receiving multiple warnings and being briefed on multiple occasions. This is part of a pattern of a complete lack of transparency from the time that revelations of Beijing's interference first came to light last year. We still have undertakings all the way back to April from PMO officials, including the Prime Minister's chief of staff Katie Telford as well as the Prime Minister's senior adviser Jeremy Broadhurst, that have still not been provided to this committee. Is that being open? Is that being transparent? Is that working with this committee as they undertook to do? It's part of a pattern of a lack of transparency. It's part of a pattern of cover-up by this Prime Minister and his PMO.

Now that we have heard from the final witness as part of the study on the question of privilege, we need the documents to be able to prepare a fulsome report. We need to have all of the facts, and in order to get those facts, we need to see the receipts; we need to see all relevant documents. That is what this motion provides for, so I hope members of the NDP-Liberal cover-up coalition will do the right thing and support this motion so that we can get the answers that MP Chong deserves, MP Kwan deserves, MP and former leader of the Conservative Party Mr. O'Toole deserves and frankly all Canadians deserve.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Madame Romanado.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll be brief.

We have Mr. O'Toole here, who we asked to see. He's sitting here patiently. We still have more questions for him.

I'm disappointed that our colleagues across the way are disrespecting their former leader. I'm going to quote what he said when he was leaving politics. He said, “Performance politics is fuelling polarization, virtue signalling is replacing discussion, and far too often we are just using this chamber to generate clips, not to start national debates”, and that's what exactly is happening right now.

With that, Madam Chair, I move to adjourn debate.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Andrew Lauzon]

We'll have a recorded division to adjourn the debate.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

The yeas have it.

Mr. O'Toole, I'm going to try to get you out of here as quickly as possible. I will ask colleagues to recognize that he asked to be out of here half an hour ago. I think some of us can be mindful of that.

I'm going to go over to Mr. Bains. You have six minutes, but try to be concise, please.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I will. I'll ask a quick question, and then I'll be sharing some time with my colleague Ms. Romanado.

Thank you, Mr. O'Toole, for joining us today. It's good to hear that there is life after politics. I'll be looking forward to that at some point.

To Mr. Cooper's point, this is about the safety of Canadians. When we're talking about transparency and trying to get to where we need to go, as you've articulated, we need to find common ground and make sure that we're looking at solutions and recommendations that will mitigate some of these challenges.

I'm concerned. I have a very diverse community in my riding. I represent Steveston—Richmond East, where the UN recognized the “Highway to Heaven”. It's a five-kilometre stretch of road with over 20 different faith-based institutions that are all next door to each other and living in harmony. It's a great community. I grew up there and have been there my whole life. I'm concerned about them and every member in this House.

You talked about errors of the past. I want to raise that it's widely known—and CSIS officials have sat where you are and told committees—that under the Harper government, a number of MOUs were signed and entered into directly with the RCMP that allowed 25 Chinese communist agents to come here, enter the country and look at repatriating people they thought were criminals who they needed to take back home. A number of them were deported during that period—about 290—and 2,900 citizens were influenced, shall we say. It was suggested that it would be in their best interest if they went back to China, because some of their family members were being threatened by the regime.

A government that you were a member of admitted foreign agents into Canada to intimidate Canadians. They are the same agents you're saying are targeting you.

It's clear that this set a terrible precedent. Don't you think that was a bad decision? Were you at any time aware of it happening to you...that those agents...? Has that ever been mentioned to you?

[Erin O'Toole]

Well, I think what you're referring to, Mr. Bains, goes back to 2008, 2009. I wasn't here until the end of 2012, but I'll tell you that when I joined the Conservative government of Prime Minister Harper there was already a concern about some of the transactions he had approved and about the already declining approach in Beijing with respect to human rights and with respect to more aggressive foreign policy, and this was almost a decade before the 19th People's Congress.

Richmond.... We have to be here to defend the people of Richmond, of your riding, probably the epicentre of foreign interference, from my limited ability to review things. Diaspora communities are scared if they have family still back in...I used to say “mainland China”, but now Hong Kong is included in that. Hong Kongers in the GVR, in Richmond, have real concerns if they feel that they even appear on a voters list. If a Conservative had won that election, they feared for family back home.

I think we have to make sure that whether it's United Front activities, whether it's reports on police stations.... I tried to say several times in my remarks that there were mistakes made by the Conservative government with respect to trying to find the balance on China. This is why, with things now public, we have to really tackle this.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Before I go to Ms. Romanado, I just wanted to say that it goes beyond just China. We're seeing that precedent may have been set in allowing foreign agents to do some work here. We're seeing other communities being affected as well. I'll just say that.