Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 26th, 2006

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Kramer, the Kingston facility is located on the grounds of the Millhaven maximum security penitentiary. Is that right?

[Susan Kramer]

That's correct.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Do the detainees receive any services at Millhaven, or do they receive everything within the specific facility we're talking about?

[Susan Kramer]

Because Correctional Services Canada is the service provider, their food would come from there. We would also use their medical facilities, if required.

So there is some sharing, but one of the principles we've respected all along is that we cannot comingle our security certificate detainees with the convicted population. Strict rules are kept so that doesn't happen.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

So likely the only time they would actually go into the institution would be if there was a health issue. Is that your understanding?

[Susan Kramer]

Yes.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Coming back to the religious requirements of the detainees, my understanding is that one of the spouses is someone who has chosen to wear a veil and that means her veil can't be removed in the presence of men she's not related to. Is that accommodated at the detention centre?

[Susan Kramer]

Yes, it is. We've ensured that during visiting hours, there is a female staff person on all the time.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

I want to come back to the statistics. There have been 18 removals under security certificates since 1991. I think that was the year.

[Daniel Therrien]

Yes.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Could you provide us the information about which countries those folks were removed to, and if it was their country of citizenship or a third country? Is that something you could provide to us later?

[Daniel Therrien]

Later, yes.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

I'd appreciate that. Thank you.

I know that CIC has a list of moratoria countries to which Canada does not deport people. Is that list a factor in considerations around the security certificate detainees?

[Susan Kramer]

We have a temporary suspension of removals to certain countries. However, in a security certificate case or the case of a serious criminal, where you balance the rights of the individual versus the safety and security of Canada, we have on occasion removed despite the fact that there may be some risk.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

And can you tell me how the process of removal to a third country works? Does that have to be done with the agreement of that third country? How is that negotiated? Can somebody tell me about what that process is like?

[Susan Kramer]

I don't profess to be the expert on removal to third countries, but usually it involves identifying a country where the person may have lived as a permanent resident--even though they are not a citizen--or where they may have spent some time, and then of course negotiations have to take place.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Therrien, you mentioned that when you're assessing the risk of torture, there is the issue of whether the country is known to practise torture. You mentioned that there are currently some concerns about the countries of citizenship of some of the detainees, but you also said it has to be a process of individualized assessment of individual risk of being tortured if they went back. Can you tell us how that assessment is made or what kinds of considerations go into it? Could someone tell me a little about that?

[Anna-Mae Grigg]

In terms of how the pre-removal risk assessment process goes, the initial level is with the PRRA officers, who regularly make these kinds of decisions. They review the application made by the individual and the submissions they and their counsel have made. In addition, they look at all sorts of sources of information on country conditions. They may use things that UN bodies, for example, and various international NGOs and research institutes have produced. There is publicly available information that they review in addition to the information the individual and his or her counsel submit. They do weighing and balancing with that information.

That's the file they see. They don't see any of the rest of the government's case. They see the submissions from the individual, plus publicly available information about country conditions and practices.

They make their assessment. If they find there is no risk, that decision can be reviewed by the Federal Court and appealed up through the judicial system. If they find there may be an element of risk, the next step is for the minister's delegate to review. The minister's delegate will receive information from the PRRA officer, so they have that file in their assessment. They will have information from CBSA on the restriction assessment--in other words, the risk to Canada--and they see the information the government has that's been made available to the department in terms of risk.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you very much, Mr. Siksay.

We will now go to Mr. Komarnicki.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question for Ms. Kramer. I don't know whether she would know whether Mr. Karygiannis has raised the concerns in the past that he has raised here with department officials or security people with respect to treatment of the specific individuals he had indicated.

The other note I have looked at in talking about the security certificates is that all the active cases we have here--Harkat, Hassan Almrei, Charkaoui, Jaballah, and Suresh--occurred during the reigns of various ministers of justice--

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to have clarification, please, on a point of order. Is Mr. Komarnicki asking the witness whether I've raised correspondence with the department on the issues? Is this what you're asking?

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I've asked what I've asked, but if--

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I need clarification.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

If he needs clarification, I'm asking if she has any knowledge that he has actually raised these issues he's raising here before the committee with the appropriate officials in the same sense that he has raised them here.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Isn't it a little bit out of order whether I've raised them or have not? I don't think that's any of your concern.