Evidence of meeting #57 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Samy Agha

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Where are we in the scheme of things in terms of the press release you're to issue on this matter? You obviously carried, but with a dissenting report you would think you'd have to have the benefit of the full report before you could issue a press release. Wouldn't that be so?

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON

The press release can refer to the fact that there's a dissenting report.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

But the dissenting report is part of the report.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Technically, it's not.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

It's a matter of courtesy.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

It seems a press release before the dissenting report is issued is premature.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

The press release would have to be written, and then of course it has to come back for the committee's approval.

We are moving along to Mr. Siksay's notice of motion.

Mr. Siksay, can we deal with this?

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to speak to the motion, and I think everyone has a copy of it in front of them. The basic requests of the motion are:

That the government should immediately implement an in-Canada program to allow conscientious objectors and their immediate family members, in particular those from the United States of America, who have refused or left military service related to the war in Iraq, to apply to remain and work in Canada and, after a period of two years, be eligible for permanent resident status.

The second point is:

That the government should immediately cease any removal or deportation actions that may have already commenced against such individuals.

Mr. Chair, I think this is a very important resolution. The occasion for tabling it here at the committee or bringing it up at the committee is the fact that, in the very recent past, in the last couple of weeks, there's been a negative decision at the Federal Court of Appeal on the refugee claim cases of Jeremy Hinzman and Brendan Hughey, two of the original American war resistors in Canada. They are now in the process of applying for leave to appeal at the Supreme Court of Canada. However, the decisions leave them without status in Canada, unless the Supreme Court agrees to hear their appeal. There are many other cases following Mr. Hinzman's and Mr. Hughey's cases that are subject to the decisions in this case, and others that are before the Federal Court and other refugee claims that are in process.

I think this is a really important issue, because American war resistors in Canada are people who have refused service in the American armed forces, in the war in Iraq. They are young men and women of conscience who have taken a very difficult and important stand on what they believe to be an issue of personal conscience. Some, like Joshua Key, who has written a book called The Deserter's Tale: The Story of an Ordinary Soldier Who Walked Away from the War in Iraq, paint a very graphic picture of the situation in Iraq and of the problems they faced as individuals serving in the American armed forces. I think Mr. Key's descriptions of some of the incidents that he witnessed, and indeed participated in, can only be described as atrocities.

Canada has a strong history of welcoming those who have taken a passivist stance, those who have been conscientious objectors to war, or those who have taken a stance against militarism. There's the example of the Dukabors who settled in British Columbia, the Mennonites, and there's the incredible example of the Vietnam War resistors who came during the period of the Vietnam War. Some say almost 100,000, but certainly over 50,000 have remained in Canada. These draft-age Americans came to Canada refusing to participate in what they saw was an immoral war.

The Prime Minister of the day, Pierre Trudeau, said that:

Those who make the conscientious judgment that they must not participate in this war...have my complete sympathy, and indeed our political approach has been to give them access to Canada. Canada should be a refuge from militarism.

Mr. Chair, I believe that the same situation exists today. Like the war in Vietnam, Canada has refused to participate in the war in Iraq, and that's a decision that Canadians strongly supported and continue to strongly support. We see increasingly in the United States that most Americans do not support the war in Iraq. Many of us and many legal experts also believe that this is an illegal war. Unfortunately, the government intervened to argue that information on the legality of the war was not relevant to the refugee claims made by the American war resistors, and sadly, it was a point they won at the IRB. I believe this is a key issue, especially given that the Nuremberg Tribunal established international law that made it clear that soldiers have a moral duty, not a choice, to refuse to carry out illegal orders. So the legality of the war, I believe, is a fundamental issue in these cases.

Some war resistors have been denied conscientious objector status in the United States, or are told that they shouldn't make an application because it has no chance of proceeding. I also think there's an issue of the kind of questionable recruitment practices that happen by the American armed forces, and many people have ended up calling what is in fact happening in the United States now a poverty draft because it targets people from low-income families and communities.

I think there are also serious issues about the contract they entered into and the promises of the numbers of tours of duty in Iraq, which are far exceeding what was explained to many of the people who did enlist.

Chair, I'm almost done.

I believe the war resistors face serious sanctions should they return to the United States. The charge they face in a court martial is desertion, and there are significant penalties associated with desertion. There's confinement for up to five years. In a time of war, there may be death or other punishment, as a court martial may direct. I think it's very significant in this case that the punishments they face should they return, having left service in the armed forces, are very severe.

Chair, we've also seen police harassment of war resistors in Canada. It's something I've been very concerned about. I have written to the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, in conjunction with my colleagues, Brian Masse and Alex Atamanenko.

Chair, I believe Canada must continue to be a haven for those who have conscientious objections to service in the war in Iraq. I believe Canadians support offering these men and women of conscience a welcome and a place here in Canada.

There has certainly been a strong response to petition campaigns on this issue. I have tabled petitions of over 7,000 names in this Parliament and over 15,000 names in the previous Parliament. On the website for the campaign to support war resistors, there is an online petition of over 14,000 names of people from Canada and around the world.

Chair, given all of this, I think it would be entirely appropriate for the government to introduce a special program that would allow war resistors to obtain permanent residence in Canada, along the lines of the motion I proposed.

Thank you, Chair.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you for that lengthy dissertation. It was a very good one at that.

Mr. Eyking, please, and then Mr. Devolin.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm not going to be long. I'm not really a full-time member of this committee, but I have a real problem with this resolution.

A billion people in this world are downtrodden and in extreme poverty. Yes, we should open our doors to them. But to get into this, it's kind of a little over the top. Where do we go next week? What if you're an Australian and you refuse to fight in Afghanistan? Should we let them have a quicker green light to come to this country?

It's my opinion, whatever it's worth. It's a little beyond the scope of what this committee should be doing.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you, Mr. Eyking.

Mr. Devolin.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Barry Devolin Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON

I want to also add that I will not be supporting the motion, for a variety of reasons.

I think there's an important distinction between the current situation in the United States and the Vietnam period. In the Vietnam period, it was Americans who were being drafted and who resisted being drafted or conscripted into the army, as opposed to now, where people have made a decision to join the armed forces.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you, Mr. Devolin.

Mr. Telegdi.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Mr. Chair, I think you and I are probably reliving our youth a bit, going back to the Vietnam War.

When Canada accepted people who skipped out from doing service in Vietnam, I think we did a major service to our neighbours to the south, and in the long term that has been recognized.

There are a couple of differentials between this and Afghanistan. Afghanistan is under NATO; it's a multilateral force. Iraq was the coalition of the willing. We, the Liberal Party, the Liberal government, resisted going into Iraq even though we had a fair amount of pressure.

The thing that really bothers me to no end is that we have heard of war crimes going on in Iraq. There's no denying that they've been there. This has been disturbing to many people, and what has even been more disturbing are the very heavy civilian casualties. I don't know if we'll ever know the figures.

The war in Iraq is a misadventure that I hope the Americans manage to avoid in the future. You would have thought that they would have learned that lesson from Vietnam.

There was the draft during the Vietnam War, but people who wanted to avoid it, and those serving in Vietnam, found various occasions to do so. The current President of the United States did not serve in Vietnam, and the President before him, Bill Clinton, did not serve in Vietnam.

I agree with Bill when he says this is mostly poverty driven, because many people who enlist in the services on an auxiliary basis look at it as another job, and then all of a sudden they're plucked out from believing that they were going to protect their country and are sent over to Iraq.

I learned my lesson from Vietnam, and how we did the right thing then, how we were right to refuse to go to the war in Iraq, and how if we're going to be engaged in this kind of activity of peace-building, peacemaking, we have to do it as part of our recognized multilateral force. So I will be supporting this motion, and I pay tribute to the contributions of the many Vietnam draft dodgers who came here.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you, Mr. Telegdi.

Is there any further discussion on the motion?

(Motion negatived)

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

The motions are done.

The steering committee meeting will resume in a few minutes.

This meeting is adjourned.