Evidence of meeting #29 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was occupational.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
The Vice-Chair Bloc Thierry St-Cyr
Unfortunately, Ms. Folco, your time is up. I even gave you a few seconds extra so we could hear the answer.
Mr. Carrier, you have six minutes.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you.
I would like to welcome you. I am very pleased that you are here. The seasonal agricultural workers program is the one that the Quebec public is most familiar with.
Earlier you said, Ms. Varvaressos, that you expected more from the federal government with respect to [Editorial note: inaudible] businesses. I did not quite get your answer. Could you give us some more details on that?
11:30 a.m.
Director General, AGRIcarrières, Comité sectoriel de main-d'oeuvre de la production agricole, Union des producteurs agricoles
I was essentially talking about human resources management. On a medium-sized farm, there is no human resources department. The “human resources” function is really not very sophisticated in those businesses. We are talking about small and medium-sized businesses here. There are outside resources. The farm employment centres, for example, that help producers develop their human resources, are supported in part by the government, but not enough.
One of the important aspects of our work involves developing the full range of human resources management. That calls for outside resources. We think that the farm employment centres can play an important role in human resources development in farming operations. Obviously this calls for financial resources, for support, and so on. In our brief, we stress assistance for human resources management. There have to be outside resources to help businesses develop and manage their human resources.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC
You said that the number of temporary workers was 5,175 at the moment. Does that meet your demand?
11:30 a.m.
Director General, AGRIcarrières, Comité sectoriel de main-d'oeuvre de la production agricole, Union des producteurs agricoles
Yes, for the moment, needs are being met.
11:30 a.m.
Director General, AGRIcarrières, Comité sectoriel de main-d'oeuvre de la production agricole, Union des producteurs agricoles
Yes, that is the case for foreign temporary workers. On the other hand, we have to make quite extensive use of foreign temporary workers in agriculture because there are problems recruiting local workers. We try to warn businesses not to put all their eggs in one basket. An alternative has to be found. You can't depend on a single pool of labour. Unfortunately, recruiting local workers is more of a problem than hiring foreign workers.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC
Some witnesses suggested that permanent residence be granted to temporary workers who come back every year. that suggestion seems to correspond to what people in this sector want. These workers would be prepared to live here permanently rather than working on contract every year, leaving Canada and coming back. Do you observe the same phenomena among your agricultural workers, in Quebec?
11:35 a.m.
Director General, AGRIcarrières, Comité sectoriel de main-d'oeuvre de la production agricole, Union des producteurs agricoles
Absolutely. It isn't widespread, but still some requests are made to us. We have tried to refer people to the relevant government department, but it wasn't easy. There are no instructions available for helping foreign temporary workers made an immigration application. In fact, we have made a recommendation to that effect on several occasions. A way should be found of explaining to people that it's possible, but in reality the criteria that would be favourable to this kind of immigration are not in effect.
11:35 a.m.
Bloc
Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC
What percentage of workers would be interested in staying here permanently rather than returning to their country every year?
11:35 a.m.
Director General, AGRIcarrières, Comité sectoriel de main-d'oeuvre de la production agricole, Union des producteurs agricoles
We have never done an analysis on that. So we don't have any figures.
11:35 a.m.
First Vice-President, Union des producteurs agricoles
We know that quite often our agricultural workers do not even meet the basic admissibility criteria. I think that in future it might be worthwhile to develop this gateway, to enable these people to become Canadian citizens. Eventually, they would have access to the same training mechanisms as the others and work for other employers. It would be an additional gateway.
11:35 a.m.
Assistant Professor, McGill School of Social Work, As an Individual
Yes. It is very important that both parties agree on the fact that the permanent residence criteria in many cases exclude people who ordinarily do this kind of unspecialized work.
We are talking about working conditions and the status of agricultural workers. Employers most for the most part behave properly, but when they don't, the fact that the workers are seasonal and they really want to be hired back the next year keeps them from filing complaints. I have conducted interviews with a number of agricultural workers, and they told me the simply could not imagine filing a complaint with the Commission des normes du travail or the CSST. They believed it was extremely difficult. I think only one worker has succeeded in doing this in Quebec.
The fact that these people are afraid of not getting hired back the next year and that recruiting for all of the employers is done by the same person is a real barrier. Even if a majority of employers behave properly, the ones whose conduct is unacceptable can be prevented from continuing to act as they do by giving these workers permanent status.
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Thank you.
We know the problem; we've heard it throughout, from other cities. Some of the recommendations said to make sure that the recruiters don't charge money and are legitimate. For the temporary foreign workers, we have to ensure that when they come into Canada there will be an orientation session, that there will be checking to make sure the employers are not exploiting them, etc.
Coming back, I'd like to ask Ms. Hanley about the point system that was changed. Perhaps you can give us some historical perspective, because the categories—A, B, C, D—used to be fairly balanced. Now, in the low-skill categories—the C and D, and especially the D—they are hardly given any points. As a result, we see that most of the people coming to Canada would have to speak fluent English or French, plus have degrees, etc.
When did that change take place? What was the reason that change was made to happen? In the 1980s it wasn't the case; it was in the mid-nineties that I noticed it was beginning to go up. At that time, what was the rationale for the Canadian government—I think at that time it was the Liberal Party—to make that change?
What then happened was that the number of temporary foreign workers went up, and then the undocumented workers also went up, because there was no queue for some of these people to come in by.
11:40 a.m.
Assistant Professor, McGill School of Social Work, As an Individual
Historically, it's interesting to look at the StatsCan longitudinal study on immigration that came out last year, which showed that the immigrants who came in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, who were from a broader range of educational background, did better in terms of integration. There were many more blue-collar workers who came at that time, and they got blue-collar jobs. For them it wasn't a drop in status; it wasn't depressing.
It has to be said as well that at that time blue-collar jobs were better paid and were unionized, as opposed to now.
11:40 a.m.
Assistant Professor, McGill School of Social Work, As an Individual
It's important to look at that difference. In the mid-1990s there was a lot of debate about why this had changed. Some would say that it was a reaction to the recession that happened at the beginning of the 1990s and some concern that they hadn't lowered the rate of immigration at that time, and also I think partly just preconceptions about what.... Immigration was changing more and more to be people from the racialized south, and there was a fear that Canada would not be able to integrate people who were seen as so different from the average Canadian. So by having high educational criteria, people maybe felt that they would be more like Canadians, although if you look at our profile, it's not the case.
I don't think there was a really good economic or sound social planning reason behind it, other than to say that we want the cream of the crop, without it really fitting the Canadian social network.
11:40 a.m.
Assistant Professor, McGill School of Social Work, As an Individual
I'm not sure of the exact year.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
It was the late 1990s. I think it was around that time.
In Quebec, for example, the forestry industry has been decimated. There is a large number of unemployed, and in the manufacturing industry also, a lot of older workers are unemployed. There really hasn't been much of a training program to help people find some alternatives, and so we're seeing in some parts of Quebec that people are going to Alberta for the oil sands, and yet in the meantime we're bringing in temporary foreign workers.
So some part of me says, okay, that doesn't quite work, because it's really depressing the wages and lowering the wages. And you have high unemployment in some regions; in other regions we need a lot of workers, and in the meantime, they're not coming in as landed immigrants. As a result, they come back year after year and they never get a chance to stay here permanently. They don't have health care, they don't have labour rights, etc. They can't bring their families into Canada, and they're separated from their families eight months of the year.
11:40 a.m.
Assistant Professor, McGill School of Social Work, As an Individual
This is why a lot of people are asking whether there really is a labour shortage in Canada to fill these kinds of jobs, or is it the conditions of the jobs that are blocking people here who are unemployed from taking them up.
I was at the National Metropolis Conference this weekend, and there were people from HRSDC and CIC who were saying that the temporary foreign worker program only responds to employer demand, that there's no government plan behind it, and that there is a feeling on the part of employers that temporary foreign workers are quick--the people come in, they do what they ask them to do, and when they are no longer needed, they're gone.
So I think it's a reflection of just-in-time management on an international scale without a look at the long-term needs of Canada to integrate people. The other immigration goals we have are to build a society that is diverse and strong and has a workforce that is healthy.
11:40 a.m.
Bloc
The Vice-Chair Bloc Thierry St-Cyr
Thank you very much. Unfortunately, I have to stop you.
Mr. Harvey, you have six minutes.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
I would like to thank you for being here today.
This is the first time I have sat on this committee and I am pleased to have an opportunity to see how things work in Quebec and Canada in relation to immigrants.
Mr. Lemieux, I would like you to describe for me how the hiring process works. If you needed 25 workers tomorrow morning, what would you do?