Evidence of meeting #23 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was intelligence.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Martin Collacott  Spokeperson, Centre for Immigration Policy Reform
Joseph Humire  Senior Fellow and Director, Center for a Secure Free Society, International Freedom Educational Foundation

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

We'd like to think, when we're in government, that we're looking far ahead and that we have some sort of visionary approach, as opposed to a reactive approach, to what we do. Do you think this biometric system is the right way to go in the long term, or do you think there's anything else we should be doing? If you could, consider both in terms of dealing with fraud and dealing with security threats, two of the major goals behind the system.

4:25 p.m.

Spokeperson, Centre for Immigration Policy Reform

Martin Collacott

I think the biometric checks, both when people come in and leave, are very important. It certainly doesn't stand by itself. That doesn't automatically give you a security check. If someone comes in, it may come up on the computer that he is a security threat, that he is entering illegally, or that we've deported him. So there are certainly major security implications there. We still have to do thorough security checks, particularly on people coming here as permanent residents, but also on visitors and long-term temporary workers. We don't do enough work in that area.

It's a combination of things. I recommended improving the security screening, which the Auditor General went into detail on. We should have more interviews overseas, and the biometric screening is an excellent initiative. When you talk about looking ahead and being visionary, actually we're way behind some other countries, but there's time to catch up, and we should be doing it.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Can you allude to the experience of another country in how biometrics have helped them implement these goals?

4:25 p.m.

Spokeperson, Centre for Immigration Policy Reform

Martin Collacott

Yes. The U.S. has been working on this for some time. There are technical problems, and there are funding problems, so they haven't got their entry and exit systems fully in operation yet. As far as I know, they are very valuable tools. They are catching people who shouldn't be trying to come in. I don't think they have their exit system fully operational, so they are not yet finding out who has left.

Many countries, like the U.K., Australia, and Japan, are now putting a lot of resources into this, so I think this is going to be all to the good. I think if the systems are up and running, they are catching people who shouldn't be coming in.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. Weston and Mr. Collacott.

I'm afraid our time has expired. On behalf of the committee, I'd like to thank you for once again providing us with your expertise.

4:25 p.m.

Spokeperson, Centre for Immigration Policy Reform

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

We will suspend for two minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

We'll reconvene.

Our next witness is Joseph Humire. He is the senior fellow and director at the Center for a Secure Free Society with the International Freedom Educational Foundation. He is speaking to us all the way from Washington, D.C.

Thank you for taking the time to speak with our committee. If you have a few introductory remarks, please make them. You have the floor.

4:30 p.m.

Joseph Humire Senior Fellow and Director, Center for a Secure Free Society, International Freedom Educational Foundation

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, honourable members of the committee.

My name is Joseph Humire. I am the director of the Center for a Secure Free Society, which focuses on researching the nexus between security, defence, and economic freedom.

I very much appreciate the invitation to appear before you today and regret that I cannot be there in person, but thanks to the efficiency of your staff, l'm able to present my testimony via teleconference.

As l'm not a citizen of Canada but rather am a citizen of the United States, I would like to focus my testimony on an issue that's pertinent to both our countries, that of border security. More specifically, I'll offer my recommendations by addressing two challenges that I believe need to be addressed to improve the security of Canada's immigration system.

The first challenge, although a bit holistic, is to employ methods and measures to evaluate security policies, which in this case are immigration security policies. The reason is to ensure that Canada's immigration system is secure yet does not irreversibly compromise the rights and liberty of your citizens.

The second challenge is a bit more practical. Canada must establish an enhanced intelligence and law enforcement infrastructure that addresses real-time immigration threats while it does not give up the sovereignty of the state.

As you can see, both challenges require a delicate balancing act. Thus, l'd like to begin by quoting one of our founders of the United States, the honourable Benjamin Franklin, who wrote, in his notes for a speech to the Pennsylvania assembly, “Those who would give up essential liberty to [obtain] temporary safety deserve neither”.

While a bit grim, Mr. Franklin captured, in essence, the premise of what needs to be understood when discussing the issue of immigration security, which is that there is a natural trade-off between security and liberty—between security and freedom—particularly as it relates to defending sovereign borders.

Thankfully, this trade-off is not made on absolute terms. The desired state is not absolute security, nor is it absolute freedom. Rather, there is a balancing act between the two that allows this trade-off to be made at the marginal level and to adjust, depending on the threat conditions present at the time. Finding this balance is the primary challenge to the Canadian government when trying to improve the security of your immigration system.

This balancing act needs to ensure that Canadian citizens are safe from all, or at least most, conventional and unconventional threats, while the guaranteed freedoms and liberty of your citizens, freedoms that are needed to ensure prosperity, are not violated. Finding this balance, or what I like to call the sweet spot, is the key to success for Canada's immigration policy.

To offer some recommendations on how to reach this sweet spot, I'll borrow from another Philadelphia scholar, Mr. Jan Ting, who was the former Assistant Commissioner to the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service. In a 2008 publication by Canada's own Fraser Institute, Mr. Ting stated that the government should take five considerations when evaluating security policies.

The first he calls historical precedent, which basically means examining what has been done in the past and seeing whether it was justifiable.

The second is revocability of the policy. It means essentially understanding when the policy has failed so that it can be withdrawn or amended to adjust to lessons learned.

The third is context, which recognizes that some policies and some initiatives may be justified in one context but not in another.

The fourth, nature of the threat, is frankly to basically understand, to the best of our ability, the actual nature of the threat.

The fifth and final is the likelihood of success. Be forthright about what works in terms of applying our moral and ethical sensibilities to the struggle to defend our nation.

In addition, Ting would add that these evaluation measures should be complemented by judicial scrutiny and congressional, or in this case parliamentary, oversight so as to ensure that all three branches of government are working in sync and within the checks and balances system.

To this I would add that security policies—in this context immigration security policies—need a comprehensive review to ensure that they are synchronized with the whole-of-government approach to immigration that aims to achieve this delicate balance between security and liberty. I would also add that immigration security policies should be scrutinized not just by governmental actors but by non-governmental actors, namely think tanks, watchdog groups, and other elements of civil society.

Mr. Chairman, it's in both of our interests that our borders be secure. However, in doing so, we must not damage what is at the core of our shared interests, which is trade and commerce. I believe that the Canadian government should be commended in this regard, as they have taken this shared interest of trade and commerce into account with just about all of the immigration security initiatives proposed in the last decade, starting with the Smart Border declaration of 2001 up to the Beyond the Border initiative of 2011 that continues to the present day.

Both of these, and all other immigration security initiatives, must undergo a comprehensive review that includes the five aforementioned considerations to ensure that they're up to date with present threat conditions. If we accomplish this, it would address the first challenge of adopting an immigration system that is secure, yet does not impede trade, commerce, or, more importantly, the individual liberty of Canadian citizens.

However, evaluation measures alone are not enough. In order to further modernize the security of Canada's immigration system, you must also examine how current immigration security policies, namely those related to border security, have kept up with the evolution of trade and commerce between our two countries.

Mr. Chairman, as you well know, Canada and the United States enjoy the largest two-way economic relationship in the world, with total merchandise trade in exports and imports exceeding $500 billion annually. In fact, about $1.3 billion in goods comes across the border every day. But what's interesting to note is that a little less than half of that trade coming across every day—give or take $500 million—takes place between elements of the same company, meaning that companies residing on both sides of the border move parts and labour to one country or the other depending on the availability of expertise and capacity. These transnational companies show that the U.S. and Canada not only share interests, but we also share capacity, as we are increasingly integrating our structure of production. The increased level of integration transcends the old ways of thinking about trade and commerce. It means that we need to transcend the way we think about protecting this trade and commerce, as well as our citizens, when addressing the real-time threats faced by both our nations.

Both the Office of the Director of National Intelligence of the United States and your Canadian Security and Intelligence Service have stated that radical Islamic extremism and terrorism are the greatest threat to our respective national security. I myself have studied Islamic extremism and terrorist groups for over a decade, both in the military and within think tanks, and I can assure you that traditional border security initiatives and improved technology alone will not stop these groups.

These groups operate in networks, and in order to counteract the threats, the security apparatus of Canada must have its own international networks that can locate, identify, and neutralize the threat. As you well know, an immigration control network has three layers of defence: the first is overseas, where visas are issued abroad amongst your embassies and consulates; the second is in the interior of a country; and the third is at the border. Enhancing border security in the traditional sense would entail placing more controls at the air, sea, and land ports, as well as along long stretches in between.

However, I will assert the position that cumbersome border controls undermine our shared interest in achieving higher levels of prosperity while actually doing very little to curb real-time security threats, such as Islamic extremism and terrorism. Pre-entry screening, intelligence cooperation, and enhanced law enforcement are all likely to yield better results in keeping terrorists, criminals, and other undesirables out of a country than are heavy-handed immigration controls at the border.

To put this in perspective, James Ziglar, former Commissioner of the U.S. INS, testified several years ago that in one typical six-month period, about 4,000 criminal aliens were arrested at the Canadian border. Since this is 4,000 among more than a million—I think the exact quotation was about 0.0004%—it is a small fraction of cross-border activity. Since the criminal element is such a small fraction of what actually comes across the border, I don't believe this is where limited resources should be focused when looking to enhance the security of your immigration system.

This leads to my recommendation for the issue of border security, which is to enhance the intelligence and law enforcement infrastructure of Canada for what some experts have called domain awareness and to implement additional prescreening processes. In this instance, less is more.

As articulated by Canada's Interim Auditor General, John Wiersema, the Canadian customs and immigration system does not have the necessary intelligence infrastructure to make sound decisions, particularly on people requesting immigration. This lack of intelligence is a result of both a failure of various intelligence services to provide necessary information to customs and immigration authorities in Canada as well as a failure of Canada to obtain valuable intelligence and analysis from its international partners, particularly the “five eyes” of Canada, the United States, Great Britain, Australia, and New Zealand, who have been cooperating for the last 60 years on intelligence-sharing and information.

Therefore, within the immigration control network, I believe more emphasis should be placed on the first two layers of defence, which is overseas within your embassies and within the interior of Canada, which is where the threat of Islamic extremism and terror originates and also is propagated.

For instance, from an aviation and maritime perspective, Canada needs to know about air travel passengers departing from Geneva before the plane leaves Geneva, not when it arrives in Montreal. Canada needs to know about ships approaching its coastal domain, not when they arrive at the dock but well before these ships even enter international waters. The truth is that at present, little prescreening is done and there is an overreliance on technology, something that is both dangerous and that risks an increase in complacent behaviour. A proper prescreening process requires more than just advanced technology, such as biometrics; it also requires capable networks of intelligence professionals who are collecting, processing, and analyzing information abroad that provide the data for biometrics to be effectively employed.

The best biometric technology in the world is rendered useless if there is no information on the exact individual. Fingerprinting becomes meaningless if there is nothing to cross-reference against. Intrusive physical technologies provide little, other than unnecessary travel delay and frustration. Snippets of data mean nothing until they are collated between domestic international partners so that the information can be turned into intelligence.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

We're going to have to wind up, sir.

4:40 p.m.

Senior Fellow and Director, Center for a Secure Free Society, International Freedom Educational Foundation

Joseph Humire

Mr. Chairman, let me wrap up my summary by saying that my recommendations are as follows.

The first, as was stated, is to adopt evaluation measures that consist of the five factors mentioned earlier on all immigration security policies, past and present, which would move towards a more accurate balance between liberty and security.

The second is to enhance Canada's intelligence and law enforcement infrastructure to allow for increased presence and activity of human elements abroad, focusing on pre-screening procedures and collaboration with foreign intelligence apparatus.

The third is to identify employed non-governmental Canadian individuals in institutions to help in drafting immigration security policies.

The last is to establish a new joint committee in Parliament that includes Citizenship and Immigration, International Trade, and National Defence.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I will end my opening statement. I'm pleased to answer any questions you may have. Thank you for your time.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you very much, Mr. Humire.

We do have some questions.

Roxanne James has some questions.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Humire, you've gone very quickly, and I was trying to write down everything you were saying.

In terms of making policy changes to better Canada's security systems here, where do you think Canada has stagnated? Where do you think we really need to make more improvements?

4:40 p.m.

Senior Fellow and Director, Center for a Secure Free Society, International Freedom Educational Foundation

Joseph Humire

As I was saying, ma'am, there are three elements of immigration security, as I see it. There are elements of security that could be implemented on the border, which I think is where most of Canada's attention has been focused, or they can be implemented abroad, with pre-screening measures, as well as within the interior—illegals and others who have entered the country through illicit methods.

Frankly, the biggest threat to Canada, the way I see it, is Islamic extremism and terrorism, and most of those networks are very difficult to capture coming across the border. It's much easier to infiltrate or neutralize those networks abroad while they're working in different cells in different countries of allied nations, or even within the country, if you know that there are cells operating within.

One thing I would suggest as a practical policy measure is just to redirect resources to apply a little more emphasis abroad and also within the interior of Canada, and not so much focus on the border, which is what I've essentially been hearing for many of the initiatives that have been proposed for Canada's immigration security.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you.

You speak even faster than I do, and it is hard to find someone who speaks as fast as I do.

You've talked about four different key areas. Could you briefly summarize them in very short, point form so that I can get them down, so that I clearly understand the key points you're trying to get across as your recommendations?

4:40 p.m.

Senior Fellow and Director, Center for a Secure Free Society, International Freedom Educational Foundation

Joseph Humire

Do you mean the four recommendations?

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Yes, just provide a brief notation on each one so that I can get them down.

4:45 p.m.

Senior Fellow and Director, Center for a Secure Free Society, International Freedom Educational Foundation

Joseph Humire

Sure, ma'am.

The first is to establish evaluation measures for all immigration security policies—and I have them specified in the written testimony—that will allow people to understand that each security measure that's implemented does not go overboard and infringe on the liberties of Canadian citizens.

The second is what I just mentioned a little while ago: to adopt pre-screening measures and to actually assign more resources to the intelligence and law enforcement infrastructure abroad.

The third is not just to employ governmental resources, but also to involve non-governmental resources, such as Canadian think tanks, watchdog groups, and other elements of civil society—to include them in the discussion and add them to the drafting of the immigration security policies in Canada.

The final one is to establish a new joint committee, which I believe probably should include at the minimum the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, the Standing Committee on International Trade, as well as that on National Defence.

Those are the four recommendations.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Ms. James, we have written comments, and after they have been translated, I will direct the clerk to send them to all members.

Thank you.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

We had another witness here who mentioned a few countries that typically raise the red flag with concerns for security issues. From your own experience, what countries would you list as those countries that raise the red flag for immigration?

4:45 p.m.

Senior Fellow and Director, Center for a Secure Free Society, International Freedom Educational Foundation

Joseph Humire

Well, I'd say frankly all the countries that have bred Islamic extremist groups. Obviously many of those would be concentrated in the Middle East and North Africa, but I want to bring to the committee's attention also groups that originate from Latin America.

I've done quite a bit of research on the presence of Islamic extremism in Latin America, which has grown about tenfold in the last ten years. I would say that there is an element in Latin America that is anti-U.S., anti-west, and anti-Canada as well, known as the ALBA group, consisting of Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador.

Most of these Islamic extremism groups, including—probably most poignantly—Hezbollah, have penetrated these countries and have used fake Venezuelan passports to enter the United States. I would say to pay special attention to these countries in Latin America.

February 28th, 2012 / 4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you very much.

As you know, Canada is one of the most welcoming countries in the world. We have one of the most fair and generous immigration systems.

Now, you mentioned a whole slew of countries, but can you talk about any specific cases where people have actually used false representation or fraudulent means to get to Canada? And do you think that is a serious problem here—in Canada, and obviously for crossing the border into the United States?

4:45 p.m.

Senior Fellow and Director, Center for a Secure Free Society, International Freedom Educational Foundation

Joseph Humire

Unfortunately, I can't give you a specific case for Canada, but I will give you a specific case for the United States, which I believe kind of transcends throughout North America.

Venezuela has essentially an agreement with Iran that allows for certain flights to travel to and from Caracas and Tehran that have no oversight. There's no way to look at the manifest of who comes in and out of those flights. Essentially, we have seen through other intelligence sharing and information collection that some of these individuals who came from these flights then changed their identities, were given Venezuelan passports with Venezuelan identities, and then had been pushed on to Latin America.

In one case, a gentleman named Kareem Ibrahim attempted to put a sort of pipe bomb at JFK International Airport in 2006. He was arrested in Trinidad and Tobago on his way back to Iran via Venezuela, via that flight. Thankfully our law enforcement captured that individual.

So that was one incident where basically a falsified passport allowed someone entry into the United States, and thankfully our law enforcement caught it.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Humire. I think Canadians, as well as, I'm sure, Americans, are absolutely horrified to hear stories like this.

That kind of leads into my last question. We think of countries around the world that, as you have said, kind of breed terrorism. Obviously we are concerned about people coming into Canada. But I've heard anecdotally that we actually have more hits coming, in some cases, from the United States, from our closest trading partner.

Is that a true statement? Is that something we need to be concerned about? I just heard your story about someone coming into the United States, so in theory, that person could then try to get into Canada next. Is that something that you're concerned about, or that you would agree with?

4:50 p.m.

Senior Fellow and Director, Center for a Secure Free Society, International Freedom Educational Foundation

Joseph Humire

Yes, of course, it's something I would be concerned with. If they're within the United States, they can obviously travel freely to Canada.

I would probably be more concerned with those individuals who are coming directly from other countries and not directly from the United States. Once they are in the United States, we generally have a better ability to monitor and source these individuals and case them. I think the hardest part is when they're actually working abroad, because that, as you well know, requires intelligence sharing and other types of elements that sometimes are beyond our control.

But in terms of sharing your concern, I would say...a little bit less than from other countries.