Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 2nd, 2012

[Herbert Grubel]

Yes.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

So you believe that we need to crack down on the bogus applicants and make sure that the legitimate refugees get a fair chance in Canada and more quickly?

[Herbert Grubel]

Yes.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Do I have any time left?

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

You still have a minute and a bit.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

That's terrific. Thank you very much.

My colleague talked about the European Union. There are actually 26 other countries someone can go to. Do you think that if someone is really fleeing persecution, fearing for his life, wanting to get out really quickly, that person would go to the nearest place of safety, or would he travel across the seas and everywhere else to get to Canada?

[Herbert Grubel]

Again, I am not privy to the thought processes of those individuals, but I am surprised that they take the trouble and the expense of coming here rather than going to Germany.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

And if they came here as refugee claimants, why would you think they would abandon their claims and go back if they were fearing for their lives and fearing persecution and all the other things we've talked about?

[Herbert Grubel]

I don't know.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Does that make any sense to you?

[Herbert Grubel]

It makes no sense to me except that, as you had hinted, maybe there is something about the way in which they get treated here that is superior to staying at home.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I think our health benefits are pretty good and I think our welfare system is pretty good too.

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you. That was perfect timing.

We're now going to go over to Ms. Sitsabaiesan.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Cleveland, I know that you've done extensive research around the world, and you started to talk about Australia. You said that there are high suicide rates following detention. Can you tell us a little bit more about Australia and what has been the impact of mandatory detention and temporary visas on asylum seekers' mental health?

[Dr. Janet Cleveland]

What I would urge you to do, actually, is to look at the report of the senatorial inquiry in Australia that just came out in March 2012, after a very in-depth study of their system, the umpteenth study, because they've had problems again and again and again over the years, and they have reports stacked quite high.

Basically, they found, among other things, that in 2010-11 the self-harm rate for about 6,000 detainees was 1,100 incidents of self-harm. Self-harm means self-cutting, attempted hanging, drinking shampoo or detergent to try to kill themselves, voluntary starvation, these kinds of acts, and six actual suicides. That's an extremely high rate. It's ten times the normal suicide rate in Canada, just to give you an idea. And this is a population held for less than a year in general, so not that far from what we would see under Bill C-31, quite possibly.

Basically, the committee concluded, and we quote this in our brief, that it was crystal clear that detention had disastrous effects on mental health. This has been proven over and over and over again. And now what Australia is doing, after 20 years of mandatory detention for so-called irregular arrivals, is they're moving to a system that is much closer to our current system in Canada; that is to say, people will be held essentially during identity checks at the beginning and then they will be released on what they call a bridging visa, which is actually equivalent to normal asylum-seeker status in Canada.

So after 20 years of mandatory detention, Australia said it was a failure, it wasn't working, it has been a disaster in mental health terms, it's very costly. Ninety percent of the asylum seekers who came as irregular arrivals and were detained were later accepted as refugees in Australia and have gone on to become Australian citizens. So you can imagine the cost to society is huge.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I'm no psychologist or psychiatrist, but those incidents that you cited, those are actually pretty evolved psychological trauma or mental health conditions. Self-harm and suicidal thoughts and actually committing suicide, from my understanding, are later in the—I don't know what you call it--depression cycle or....

[Dr. Janet Cleveland]

It is very serious, but it's not surprising when you have a population that is, on average, highly traumatized, has been exposed to war zones, to all kinds of situations like that, and then is placed in a situation of helplessness and feels branded as criminals when they are not. So that's very, very harsh.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Cécile, I see you nudging there. Do you want to...?

[Dr. Cécile Rousseau]

Just to kind of transmit the feeling of how severe it can be, if someone were to come to you and say that our Canadian soldiers who have come back from Afghanistan and are traumatized are lying, are manipulating, that in fact it's not a big deal to go to Afghanistan, you would feel hurt. You would feel angry, and rightly so.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Cécile Rousseau]

I think it's exactly the same thing.

What we want to convey, beyond partisanship or politics, is how can we make people understand and feel what these people have been going through, the people who have been traumatized. It is the same as our boys in Afghanistan. These people are traumatized.

How can we care for them? I'm sure everybody here is sensitive to traumatized people. How can we feel for them? How can we understand that? Maybe that's our job, to make people understand better what they've been through.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you.

Madam Chair, do I have any time left?

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

You have 15 seconds.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Fifteen seconds, okay.

What I'll say is that I am personally a survivor of war. I understand trauma. I thank you for the work that you do every day of your life. Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you very much.

Now we will go over to Mr. Weston, for five minutes.