Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 2nd, 2012

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome to all of our guests.

I've listened very carefully to the testimony. I apologize for missing part of yours, Mr. Grubel.

I have to tell you that there's something you said just recently that I'm a little bit concerned about. We know that you have a problem with detention. We understand that. I'm not disputing your personal opinion on that particular issue. You said that you have a problem with people being detained because they arrive with false documents. Before you say anything, I have to tell you that I can't think of a better reason to detain someone than that they arrive with false documents, because we don't know who they are. I'm a little concerned about a statement, made across the board, that you have a problem with detention, and part of it is because people arrive with false documents.

Having said that, I'd like to ask you a very simple question. You were actually going to dispute the number of 41 people from those two vessels being inadmissible to Canada. Regardless of the number you have or the number my colleague said there were, a number of people were actually found to be inadmissible for security reasons or for other reasons, such as war crimes, etc.

If they arrived without documents and with false documents, would you welcome any of those 41 people into your house and take full responsibility for their actions and whereabouts? Or do you think that detention is necessary so that we can identify people who arrive on our border, unannounced, illegally, through human smuggling, in mass arrivals? Do you not think that the Government of Canada owes the citizens of Canada the safety and security we need to give them?

It's a simple yes or no answer, really.

[Dr. Janet Cleveland]

It's not quite, because we get detention and incarceration mixed up. I have absolutely no problem saying, and I fully agree, that we need to check people's identities when they arrive in Canada with false documents or otherwise. The people we interviewed said themselves that they had no problem with that and that there's not a country in the world that lets in terrorists, criminals, and so on. But they asked why you were putting them in prisons and treating them like criminals.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

[Dr. Janet Cleveland]

There are other ways to simply have people in supervised accommodation while you're checking them, and it's done in many countries.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I understand. I'm glad you clarified that you actually agree that detention is necessary to be able—

[Dr. Janet Cleveland]

I said detention as supervised accommodation—

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Right.

[Dr. Janet Cleveland]

—but not incarceration.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

My second question—

[Dr. Janet Cleveland]

Yes.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Could we just have the witness answer? Then I'll come back to you.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Actually, I did have my answer.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I have a second question in addition to that. You have a problem with detention and you have a problem with maybe some of the conditions of detention. But you are aware that Canada meets all of its international obligations, in accordance with our own charter. Actually, we go far beyond many other western countries we're compared against with regard to this particular aspect.

I just remind the committee that this is a very small proportion of the number of people we're talking about. This is not the vast majority of refugees who come into this country. There have been a few hundred over a decade.

You are aware that we meet all of our international obligations and that we are in accordance with our charter. I just want a yes or no answer.

[Dr. Cécile Rousseau]

Canada is the only country to have a reservation for the Convention of the Rights of the Child, and this is usually unknown. Do you know that? Do you know what the reservation is?

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Are we in--

[Dr. Cécile Rousseau]

Do you know what the reservation is?

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

As the chair, I do have to interrupt.

The members of Parliament ask questions—

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I just need an answer to—

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

—and I'm going to ask our witnesses to answer those questions.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you so much.

My question is whether you agree that we meet international obligations in accordance with our own charter. It's either a yes or you don't agree with that. In fact, we would have a problem with our current system if that were the case.

[Dr. Cécile Rousseau]

I would say that we do not totally respect the convention we have signed.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Okay. And that's your personal opinion. Thank you.

I want to direct my questions now to Mr. Grubel. Again, I apologize....

We're going back to the European Union and the problem we have. Are you aware that 95% of people who come as refugees from the European Union actually withdraw or abandon their applications, even before the first hearing? Are you aware of that? Why do you think that is?

[Herbert Grubel]

I'm not a psychologist. Maybe you should ask Madam Cleveland about this. I don't know.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Do you think it has anything to do with the pull factor here in Canada?

We had witnesses come in and talk about our welfare system yesterday. Just as a side note, you were asking about the costing behind this particular bill. It costs Canadian taxpayers $170 million for abandoned claims from the European Union. That's per year. When I talk about 95% of them being abandoned, that is the actual monetary amount it costs people like you and me and all the constituents in my riding of Scarborough Centre. It costs them, hard-working Canadians, to foot that bill of $170 million.

Do you think that's fair to taxpayers?

[Herbert Grubel]

It isn't, and that has been the essence of my testimony. I think we should consider all of these issues in the light of what we can afford.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Let me ask you one more question, very quickly.

A large portion of this bill has to do with making sure that legitimate, bona fide refugees can get into Canada, be processed more quickly, and be able to start their new lives here in a very protected country. Do you not think it's important that we get these people processed more quickly and at the same time crack down on those who are abusing our system, who bog down the system, and cause legitimate bona fide refugees to wait up to two years for their applications to be heard in the first hearing? Do you think that's fair?