Evidence of meeting #53 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lutz Oette  Counsel, REDRESS
Jenny Jeanes  Program Coordinator, Action Réfugiés Montréal
Debbie Douglas  Executive Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants (OCASI)
Angus Grant  As an Individual

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I call the meeting to order.

This is the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, meeting number 53. Orders of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), are our study on “Standing on Guard for Thee: Ensuring that Canada's Immigration System is Secure”.

For the first hour we have two witnesses. One is here with us today all the way from Montreal. From Action Réfugiés, we have Jenny Jeanes. You have been with us before, on Bill C-31. You're the program coordinator. Thank you for coming again today.

All the way from London, England, by video conference, we have Lutz Oette, counsel with the group REDRESS. Sir, can you hear me?

3:30 p.m.

Lutz Oette Counsel, REDRESS

Yes, that's correct.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, sir, for taking the time to speak to the committee.

Each of you will have up to 10 minutes to speak. Then there will be questions from different members of the committee.

Ms. Jeanes, you may go first.

3:30 p.m.

Jenny Jeanes Program Coordinator, Action Réfugiés Montréal

Hello. My name is Jenny Jeanes, and I coordinate Action Réfugiés Montréal's detention program. Thank you for inviting me here today to speak about immigration detention.

Some of the comments I will make today will echo some of the evidence provided during the examination of Bill C-31, but are relevant to the current study.

Action Réfugiés Montréal was founded in 1994 by the Anglican Diocese of Montreal and the Presbyterian Church in Canada through the Presbytery of Montreal. Our mandate includes assisting refugee claimants who are detained in the CBSA Immigration Holding Centre in Laval, Quebec.

Since joining Action Réfugiés Montréal in 2005, I have visited the Canada Border Services Agency holding centre in Laval on a weekly basis, meeting with individual detainees. Each week we meet newly arrived refugee claimants who have for the most part been detained in order to verify their identity. We help them understand complex immigration procedures, especially the refugee claim process; assist them in finding legal counsel; provide phone cards to those who need to call their families and ask for identity documents to be sent; and identify the more vulnerable detainees in order to provide them extra support.

I understand committee members have visited the three holding centres. Having visited, you have been able to gain valuable information about detention conditions. However, a single visit does not provide complete information. I hope that our experience visiting the centre on a weekly basis, following the cases of detainees through the investigations process, and accompanying them to detention review hearings will provide a more complete picture.

This information is essential for your study. When making decisions about detention as a tool to enhance security, the government has a responsibility to ensure safeguards are in place to prevent further harm to people fleeing persecution. The consequences of the decision to detain must be considered.

The four key points I would like to speak to you about today are the following: the situation of children accompanying their parents in detention; the inadequate consideration of vulnerability in the decision to detain or maintain detention; the inability of the immigration division to fully review detention on the grounds of identity; and the impact of detention on refugee claimants. All of the cases I will mention today are of refugee claimants detained on identity grounds.

I believe the committee has been provided with statistics about the number of children detained in Canada each year. It is essential to keep in mind that many of the children who spend time in holding centres each year are not officially detained but accompany their detained parents; these children do not appear in the official statistics.

The Canadian Council for Refugees published a report highlighting such cases in 2009. In theory, these children may leave into someone else's care; however, most of the families—

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Excuse me, I'm sorry to interrupt, but this is all being translated, and the translators require you to go just a tad slower if you could.

Thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Program Coordinator, Action Réfugiés Montréal

Jenny Jeanes

Okay.

However, most of the families that I have met in detention include young children between zero and five, even breast-feeding children, where it is not reasonable or even possible for the children to be separated from their parents. One of the key problems with accompanying children is that the IRB does not consider the best interests of these children when deciding whether to maintain detention for or release the parents.

I would like to share stories of some of the families we have met in detention.

One is about a woman refugee claimant from Ethiopia and her three children, ages four years, three years, and eight months. At her seven day review, her lawyer presented a known shelter for women and children refugees as an alternative to detention, arguing that considerations should be given to the presence of three young minors in detention. However, detention was maintained, and the family spent 29 days in detention, during which the children were ill and had to be taken several times to hospital.

A female refugee claimant from Somalia was held with her young son who was quite ill. After more than 40 days their detention was once again maintained, despite affidavits from family members in Canada as to their identity, despite the presence of an alternative, and despite arguments about the child's health.

Some parents share with us the difficulties their children face in detention, including fear, trouble eating or sleeping, or physical discomforts. Other parents indicate that while their children do not seem disturbed by being in the centre, their own stress and anxiety have negative effects on their children.

The next point I would like to address is that of the detention of vulnerable persons, including the elderly, those experiencing physical or mental illness, pregnant women, or unaccompanied minors.

One of the problems that arises with vulnerable persons who are detained for identity is that once the decision has been made to arrest and detain, vulnerability is no longer directly relevant to the decision to release or maintain detention. There is no clear direction for either CBSA or the IRB to consider release due to vulnerability or compelling circumstances.

In 2009, I met a 75-year-old woman from the Democratic Republic of Congo in the holding centre, a refugee claimant detained on identity. She had a significant language barrier and health problems. An alternative was offered from the day she was detained in the form of a community worker who spoke her language and was willing to provide shelter and support. This alternative was endorsed by her designated representative, a social worker. However, the woman spent 17 days in detention, which was very difficult for her since she was unwell and had trouble communicating even via an interpreter.

In our experience, many vulnerable people end up in detention, which creates an enormous strain not only on them, but on CBSA's resources, and yet often suitable alternatives exist. It would seem there is a lack of clarity as to how to address vulnerability.

In 2010, CBSA conducted its own internal review process called “CBSA Detentions and Removals Programs - Evaluation Study”. In the final report released in November 2010, CBSA identified areas for improvement in detention, including better training on mental illness, and the need for clearer guidelines as to how to address vulnerable persons, since the wording of enforcement manuals was found to be insufficient. This was seen to result in inconsistencies across Canada. For example, minors, persons with mental health issues or other special needs were extremely unlikely to be detained in the Atlantic and prairie regions, unlike other regions.

A special mention should be made of unaccompanied minors. Although there is greater clarity in the law and regulations as to detention being a last resort, we have seen numerous cases of unaccompanied minors spending nearly a month or longer in detention, despite alternatives existing. In one fairly dramatic case, the unaccompanied minor herself had a baby with her, was breast feeding, and had family members with whom she could stay in Canada.

My next point focuses on the inability for IRB members to adequately review detention on identity grounds. Unlike flight risk or danger to the public, immigration division members cannot overturn the initial decision to detain on identity made by a CBSA officer, no matter how much evidence the detainee has provided, or how fully they are collaborating, and certainly not based on any compelling circumstances.

Sometimes new evidence is provided at detention reviews that was not available to the arresting or investigating officer, including new documents or significant testimony. Board members' experience in handling detention cases allows them to develop a familiarity with the identity issues, but they do not have the power to satisfy themselves of the person's identity, no matter how much experience they have.

In one case, a Kurdish refugee claimant appeared for review after having spent 40 days in detention on identity grounds, in part due to doubts as to the authenticity of two UNHCR identity documents. At the review, a letter from the UNHCR was provided to the board member confirming the authenticity of the documents; however, the board member was unable to render a decision on identity and instead provided an additional 12 days of detention for CBSA to confirm the information.

In other cases, documents with security features have been found to be authentic and verifications completed, yet CBSA calls for detention to be maintained for other factors, such as waiting for a passport to arrive. In such cases, the board member is unable to overturn CBSA's opinion on identity even when multiple elements confirming identity are present.

All of these factors place a strain on CBSA resources when alternatives are often possible, but I would like to focus on the strain it places on detainees. During our weekly visits, we hear from refugee claimants about how hard they find detention.

One of the most common things we hear about is the shame they feel at wearing handcuffs. Handcuffs are a powerful symbol of punishment for most. We also hear about the shame of being under constant surveillance, the fear of deportation, and chronic physical discomfort such as constipation and fatigue.

We regularly meet detainees who speak no English or French.

The toll that detention takes on the mental health of refugee claimants has been documented in the research of Janet Cleveland from McGill University.

There is the added stress of having to prepare one's refugee claim while in detention, with no privacy and with obstacles to communicating with family or legal counsel. Detainees regularly express distress at having to prepare their personal information form within 28 days. This will be exacerbated with the shorter delays under Bill C-31.

In light of all these observations, I believe there is the potential for far more consideration of alternatives to detention by both CBSA and the IRB. This would reduce the human costs of detention and also the considerable financial costs.

I recently had the opportunity to participate in a binational round table meeting on alternatives to detention, which was organized by the UNHCR. Many examples of alternatives were provided. It was clear that alternatives can be effective and necessary, and that one key element is to develop tools for early screening of vulnerable persons.

The UNHCR has published new guidelines on detention that provide fresh direction to states as to when detention is reasonable, proportionate, and necessary, and when alternatives are appropriate. They call for an assessment of the overall reasonableness of detention, taking into consideration all factors, including special needs or considerations.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Ms. Jeanes, are you almost finished?

3:40 p.m.

Program Coordinator, Action Réfugiés Montréal

Jenny Jeanes

Yes.

I hope my comments are helpful in this regard.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I'm sorry I interrupted.

3:40 p.m.

Program Coordinator, Action Réfugiés Montréal

Jenny Jeanes

No problem.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Mr. Oette, it's your turn, sir. You have 10 minutes to make a presentation to the committee. Again, thank you for taking the time to see us.

3:40 p.m.

Counsel, REDRESS

Lutz Oette

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon—or good evening, in my case—distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for inviting us to testify to the committee today.

In my statement I will focus on what steps Canada could and should take where suspects of international crimes are present in the country.

I'm counsel at REDRESS, an international human rights organization based in London that seeks justice for torture survivors worldwide. REDRESS has been involved in a number of cases in several countries around the world, cases aimed at bringing to justice perpetrators of international crimes such as genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and torture.

Suspects of international crimes who are foreign nationals fall within the broad scope of immigration, but they clearly constitute a special category whose treatment raises some distinctive legal questions. Here I will focus on the situation that has given rise to concern in respect of Canada's practice; that is, what should or must the state do if it finds such suspects on its territory?

The rules of international law are quite clear on this point. The convention against torture and the 1949 Geneva Conventions require states either to extradite suspected perpetrators of torture or war crimes to face prosecution or to exercise their jurisdiction to prosecute such suspects. This principle is also increasingly held to be applicable to genocide or crimes against humanity; indeed, this is widely recognized and followed in state practice.

More than 125 states have relevant implementing legislation. Over 15 states have brought prosecutions on the basis of extraterritorial jurisdiction. In Europe, this includes perpetrators of international crimes committed in Argentina, the former Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Afghanistan, and Iraq.

These developments are part of an international commitment to ensure that there's no impunity for those who inflict intolerable suffering on their fellow human beings and to provide justice to victims who have nowhere else to turn. To this end, the international system relies on states' commitment and cooperation to bring perpetrators to justice in the appropriate forum. Legislation enabling national authorities to exercise jurisdiction over international crimes and institutional arrangements to make prosecutions effective are the key means to achieve this goal.

Indeed, Canada is among the countries that have taken a lead to hold perpetrators of international crimes to account. Its Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act in 2000 was the first of its kind to implement the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court in national laws, a move that has been followed by several states in Europe since. As a general rule, a state must prosecute a suspect found on its territory unless it extradites him or her.

Importantly, the rule explicitly refers to extradition as the formal procedure to be used in criminal cases. Other measures, such as deportation used in the immigration context, are insufficient to meet the state's obligation under international law, this for good reason. In extradition proceedings, a state actively cooperates with other states in line with its extradition laws, and this signals a mutual interest in criminal justice being done. Deportation proceedings, in contrast, are aimed at removing a person. The deporting state has no formal interest in what happens to the deported person. The person may or may not be prosecuted for international crimes, but the deporting state has no formal role in this.

On this point, I would like to draw your attention to the UN Committee Against Torture's June 2012 concluding observations on Canada's state party report. In its observations, the committee expressed its concerns that Canada's “policy of resorting to immigration processes to remove perpetrators from its territory rather than subjecting them to the criminal process creates actual or potential loopholes for impunity”. This means that individuals “have been expelled and not faced justice in their countries of origin”.

The committee therefore recommended that Canada exercise its jurisdiction over persons responsible for torture, including foreign nationals. It emphasized that Canada “should enhance its efforts, including through increased resources, to ensure that the 'no safe haven' policy prioritizes criminal or extradition proceedings over deportation and removal under immigration processes.”

This is particularly important, considering that Canada may not be able to secure extradition and may also be prevented from sending a suspect to the country concerned because he or she faces a genuine risk of torture, ill treatment, or persecution if returned. It is in these situations that a state must be ready to prosecute. If a state fails to do so, it breaches its international obligations.

There are also sound policy reasons for a policy of prosecuting suspects of international crimes found in Canada.

First, it sends a strong message to perpetrators that they are not welcome.

Second, it pre-empts Canada's having to face a situation in which it stands accused of tolerating the presence of war criminals or taking measures, such as deportations, that fail to ensure justice.

Third, it underscores Canada's commitment to international justice, which enables it to take a leading role and speak with enhanced legitimacy when seeking to prevent and respond to international crimes worldwide.

Fourth, such policy and practice act as a precedent and potential deterrent if coordinated with other states. As such, any expenditure for the prosecution of international crimes constitutes a good investment toward international peace and stability.

Fifth, mirroring the first point, Canada would send a strong signal that it is on the side of victims of international crimes. While there may be no short-term political currency in taking such a stance, it builds on historical precedents that are essential to a stable and just international order and international solidarity.

What does all this mean in practice? Where suspects of international crimes are in the country, Canada should cooperate with authorities of other states with a view to ensuring criminal accountability. Equally, it is important that Canada make strenuous efforts to strengthen the capacity of its authorities to investigate and prosecute suspects of international crimes when the individuals concerned cannot be extradited to face trial.

Experiences from Europe may be helpful in this regard. While there are a number of difficulties, the European Union has taken steps to strengthen state cooperation to make the investigation and prosecution of international crimes more effective.

Several countries have been inspired by Canada's war crimes program. Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland have established specialized units within their police and/or prosecution services dedicated to cases involving international crimes. What is critical here—and this applies equally to the crimes against humanity and war crimes program in Canada—is that sufficient resources are allocated so that these programs can effectively fulfill their task. In the absence of such concerted efforts, we risk that the cycle of international crimes and atrocities, and the instability and suffering that goes with it, will never end.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. Oette.

We now have questions from the committee for both of you, and I thank both of you for your presentations.

There are several new members on the committee. The first round will be seven minutes each. Unfortunately, Mr. Andrews, you have only five minutes, but I know you'll ask some excellent questions.

Ms. James, you're first.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome back. We certainly missed you. Welcome back to one of our guests, Ms. Jeanes, and welcome also to our guest overseas.

I'm going to start my questions with Mr. Oette. I hope I pronounced that correctly.

As you know, we've been studying security. You're probably very aware that we have problems with the asylum system in Canada. I'm going to outline one specific notable case, and I'm going to ask some questions related to that case afterwards.

The case is about a gentleman named Mahmoud Mohammad Issa Mohammad, who carried out terrorist acts with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Despite Mohammad's established connection to terrorism, and there's no disputing his connection to terrorism, he has been able to remain in Canada since 1987. He has done so by launching a series of judicial appeals, a process that has cost Canadian taxpayers—and you might want to write this down—$3 million.

I'm listening to you speak about how we deal with people after they're already in Canada and we need to remove them, and our other witness this afternoon is talking about asylum seekers who are in detention because their identities are unknown.

My question for you, Mr. Oette, is, how do we prevent someone who is a threat to Canadian security from coming to Canada, instead of having the situation of someone like Mr. Mahmoud Mohammad Issa Mohammad costing Canadian taxpayers $3 million and being here since 1987? What are the flaws in Canada's screening system that allowed him to come into Canada in the first place?

3:50 p.m.

Counsel, REDRESS

Lutz Oette

My focus was really on the situation that Canada, or any country for that matter, faces when someone is already in the country. Of course a country also is entitled to bar the entry of anyone, under article 1F of the refugee convention, who is suspected of having committed international crimes or having been involved in acts of terrorism.

My point would—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you.

I understand we're going to be studying another bill in the future, which is the fast removal of foreign nationals who are linked to terrorism or crime, etc.

Do you have actual recommendations that you could give to this committee on how Canada could better screen people who come to Canada?

Obviously, this gentleman fell through the cracks. He came in. I don't know if you have any idea how long it would take an average Canadian to earn $3 million, but my guess is that it's never.

I'm wondering if you could give any solid recommendations to this committee on what Canada should do to better screen people like this gentleman so they don't actually land here in Canada and cross our border.

Do you have any recommendations?

3:55 p.m.

Counsel, REDRESS

Lutz Oette

Do you mean where the screening is done externally?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

If you want to go in that direction, sure. We're looking for your recommendations to the committee.

3:55 p.m.

Counsel, REDRESS

Lutz Oette

Well, I wouldn't have any particular recommendations, but I'll mention that in the European context we now have a number of specialized units, war crimes units, and one of their prime tasks is to undertake the screening.

Obviously, that is mainly done in country, but I don't have any special expertise on the screening procedures, as such.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Are you familiar with biometrics?

3:55 p.m.

Counsel, REDRESS

Lutz Oette

No, I'm afraid not.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

You're not familiar at all with biometrics. I'm surprised. It's basically the use of—

3:55 p.m.

Counsel, REDRESS

Lutz Oette

Well, I have a general knowledge, but I—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

—face recognition and fingerprints.

3:55 p.m.

Counsel, REDRESS

Lutz Oette

Yes, but this is leading into a rather different direction from what I came to talk about.