Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 13th, 2013

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

No, my point of order is that I believe that the motion Mr. Dykstra moved was that the question be put on the amendment not on the main motion.

So what we're debating here is the amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I've made my ruling, Ms. Sims. You're next on the speakers list, Ms. Sims, and then Madam Groguhé.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Can you refer me to the reference that, first, prohibits further amendments, and second, subsumes there is no further debate on the main motion?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

That's my ruling.

Madam Groguhé, you're on the list.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I'm asking if there is any basis for that ruling.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I made the ruling based on the Standing Orders. I don't want to get into a debate on my ruling.

I don't have to give a....

Madam Groguhé, on a point of order?

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Mr. Chair, before we proceed, I would really like you to clarify the position you just took concerning the vote on this motion. I understood your position very clearly as to the vote on the amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

What don't you understand, Madam Groguhé?

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

However, regarding the motion, I did not understand, and I would like some clarifications. Mr. Chair, if you could do that, that would be very much appreciated and very important. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Sure. I don't think I can be any clearer. We are going to have debate on the question being put. Then there will be a vote on the amendment without further debate on the amendment. Then there would be a vote on the main motion without further debate on the main motion.

The speaking order—

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I challenge—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

There is a challenge to the chair. Will the ruling of the chair be sustained?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

(Ruling of the chair sustained)

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Lamoureux, you have the floor.

On a point of order, Ms. Sitsabaiesan.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Reading from O'Brien and Bosc, 2009, second edition, page 1051, the chapter on committees, it's pretty clear to me that.... Do you need me to read the citation?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I have no idea what you're talking about until you read it.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I'll read the citation, Mr. Chair.

Under “Rules of Debate”, it says:

Every standing, legislative and special committee observes the Standing Orders of the House so far as they may be applicable, except the Standing Orders as to the election of a Speaker....

I'm not going to read the rest of that sentence. It goes on say:

This means that, in principle, the number of times a Member may speak in committee and the length of his or her speeches is not subject to any limit. The Member can thus take the floor as often and for as long as he or she wishes, provided the Chair has duly given the Member the floor.

Mr. Chair, with respect to this citation I just read from O'Brien and Bosc—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

The problem, Ms. Sitsabaiesan, is that my ruling that the question be put was overturned, so what you're reading is quite true, but it has nothing to do....

We passed that. We're on to another stage.

Mr. Lamoureux, you have the floor.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'm not done with my point of order. You did not allow me to state my point of order to its completion.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You're quite right. I apologize, Ms. Sitsabaiesan. Go ahead.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you.

My point of order is that the motion that Mr. Dykstra put forward that a question be put is actually out of order, Mr. Chair. The question cannot be called at this stage in committee based on our rules of procedure.

I can go to the page where it talks about the duties of a chair, that the duty of the chair is to uphold the practices and procedures in this House as well as the standing orders. Just because the government has a majority of members on this committee, the chair cannot allow the government members to say that they are above our practices and rules that we abide by.

So, Mr. Chair, I respectfully submit to you that you are the one who should be upholding our rules and not allowing the government members to bully you into making up their own rules just because there's a majority of them. They can't just make up their own rules, Mr. Chair. We have written rules and these are the rules that we follow for a reason.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I've chaired a few committees and the best part is that I've been here I don't know how many hours and I've never been challenged so much. But I've been challenged and my ruling has been overturned.

So I'm not going to agree or disagree with you. I've made rulings as I see fit for and against the opposition, for and against the government, and I've made my ruling. We're now going to hear from Mr. Lamoureux on the issue of whether the question be put.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It has been a very interesting process. I'm not too sure exactly how long I'll be speaking for, but I did want to, at the very beginning, express how it is that we've come to this point where we have the chairperson's rulings being overturned.

I think it's important for us to recognize the difference between consensus, majority—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Lamoureux, the issue that's before us is should the question be put. You're going somewhere else.