Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 25th, 2014

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I know they're different. That's why I'm asking you. Can you define the difference for me?

[Saman Ahsan]

Forced would be against a person's will. Often girls growing up in immigrant families grow up with the idea that their families will choose a spouse for them, and it's something that's quite natural to them that they might not be opposed to. It depends. Usually a family does want the best for their daughter, so they would try to get someone who will take care of their daughter. But sometimes that's not the case, which is very disappointing, if a family finds someone who is not going to take care of their daughter. But usually families also try that.

Those are arranged marriages, where the family finds someone and the young people agree to get into such a marriage.

A forced marriage would be when they don't agree, or they have met the person or heard about the person and don't want to get into it.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Some witnesses at this committee have discussed conditional permanent residence. We know that if women present evidence that they are in a forced or abusive marriage, the proposed condition would cease to apply in those instances where there's evidence of abuse or neglect. Have you witnessed any cases of abuse or neglect?

[Saman Ahsan]

Personally, I have. I had a friend who went through that situation. She came in through an arranged marriage, not a forced marriage. She had never met her husband before, but she had agreed with her family to get into this marriage and come to Canada. When she came here, she went through all kinds of abuse, physical, emotional, economic. She's a good case study, because she finally went to the services, and they took her and her child away from her husband. She was able to get a lot of training and skill development. First she got training as an English-language service provider within the same community centre that supported her, and eventually she did her law degree and now she's a lawyer working on domestic violence cases.

So I've seen one case that ended up pretty well.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Well, that's fortunate for her. What kind of evidence did she present?

[Saman Ahsan]

It's an interesting case, because she had internalized the violence, and she was not reporting it. She was talking to her doctor on the phone when her husband started abusing her, and the doctor heard her and sent the social workers. They said that they believed there was abuse going on and that they would like to separate her from the family, so they took her away to a shelter. After a lot of psychological help, she was able to really say that she had been abused. They had the proof, because they were able to go right then when the doctor reported having heard abuse going on. They were able to see the violence, but at the time she had said, “No, no, I fell down the stairs.”

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Was she afraid to also report it potentially because she was afraid of losing her PR status? Is that one of the reasons?

[Saman Ahsan]

She had no idea of the rights that she had or the status. She didn't have her passport. It was with her in-laws. So she had no idea what would happen, and they were always threatening her.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Is that it, Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You had seven minutes. You have a couple of minutes left, a minute and a half actually.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Okay, when you said I still had seven minutes, I thought, wow.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

No, you have a couple of minutes left.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

That went really fast.

Ms. Duplessis, your organization tries to reach out to women in isolation. This can obviously present some challenges, since clearly, the man would like to keep her away from any contact or support. Have you heard of any cases where the man found out the woman was seeking support and the situation got worse?

For example, if there's a spouse....

Go ahead, sorry.

[Marie-Josée Duplessis]

Thank you. Mr. Opitz.

I don't want to get into something I do not know well. Our organization does not work with women who have been subjected to violence. So I prefer to leave the floor to the other two witnesses who have more information on that.

But I thank you nevertheless for the question.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I think my time is up, but I just wanted to point out that language requirements were actually introduced by the Liberals in the original act. I think with that, my time is up.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Ms. Molina, I have a question for you. It's a question I asked the bureaucrats when they were here.

You have a situation, well it's not a hypothetical situation, but it's a situation where the man says there was fraud involved. The wife left and it was fraudulent. The wife says no, it was physical and mental abuse.

There are three different areas. There could be the criminal aspect if there's physical abuse. That's assault and that's evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Then we have a matrimonial court. I have no idea what goes on in the civil code but presumably it's similar to Ontario, which would be on the balance of probabilities as to who is telling the truth. Then we have immigration. My understanding is it wouldn't even be, it may not even be, a judicial decision. It might be an administrative decision as to who is telling the truth.

Do you see a problem there? I am looking at strange conflicts of law.

You could even have conceivably different decisions. Someone could say the husband is telling the truth. Someone could say the wife is telling the truth.

[Claudia Andrea Molina]

I haven't witnessed a case where you had those three scenarios. I've witnessed women under severe stress, traumatic situations, where women are put under the microscope and people don't believe them. They have to prove that they've been victims of violence. That's pretty traumatic. On top of suffering violence, they have to go through all that other stress.

I think the government should put measures in place to just treat women with more kindness.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Okay.

Ms. Blanchette-Lamothe, you have a question, a very brief one. Thank you for letting me take your time.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

No problem.

My question is for Ms. Ahsan.

I'd like to go back to a suggestion made by Ms. Duplessis that the government automatically register sponsored women arriving in the country for information sessions so as to ensure that every one of them, even the most isolated or the most vulnerable, has a first contact with front-line services.

What do you think about that?

[Saman Ahsan]

Yes, I agree entirely. However, I would like to add one thing.

I'll switch to English, if you will excuse me.

The services and service providers should be culturally sensitive and it's better if you have someone who speaks their language or is from the same community. But that would be a great support to women coming in.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you. Our time has expired.

I thank the three of you for coming to the committee and giving us your views on many different issues. Thank you very much.

This committee is adjourned.