Evidence of meeting #54 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lost.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nicole Girard  Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Alain Laurencelle  Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Stephanie Bond

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 54 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, June 3, 2022, today the committee will commence consideration of Bill S-245, an act to amend the Citizenship Act, granting citizenship to certain Canadians.

On behalf of the committee, I would like to welcome the officials from Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada to provide their opening remarks. Today, we are joined by Nicole Girard, director general, citizenship policy; Uyen Hoang, senior director, legislation and program policy; and Alain Laurencelle, senior counsel, legal services.

Before we go into the opening remarks, I remind you that all amendments to the bill must be submitted to the clerk by Friday, March 31, 2023, at noon. That is the deadline for submitting any amendments to Bill S-245.

Go ahead, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Good afternoon, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Madam Chair, before I begin, I would like to point out that something happened last week. A meeting with a German delegation was cancelled. I'd like us to discuss that and to have some of my questions answered about what happened then and how it all went down.

At your convenience, we could have this discussion in camera, as it may be awkward for some people to do it publicly. I need to address what happened last week. The committee members need to talk about it together.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

Madam Chair, if we do want to discuss this and we need to go in camera, that should maybe happen at the end of the meeting because I know it's a bit of a hassle to switch over to in camera. Those are my thoughts on that.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marie-France Lalonde Liberal Orléans, ON

I fully agree with my colleague Mr. Redekopp.

I think we are now dealing with an important topic—in this case, a bill. I think that, if it is the will of the committee members, it would be better to deal with this matter toward the end of the meeting, especially since going in camera takes some time.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

It seems the consensus is that we can discuss that issue at the end of the meeting, so we will keep about five minutes to go into that discussion.

With that, we will welcome our witnesses for today.

You will have five minutes for your opening remarks, and then we will go into a round of questioning. The floor is yours. You can please begin.

3:40 p.m.

Nicole Girard Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Before begin, I would like to acknowledge that I work on the traditional—

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I'm sorry for interrupting.

It's a technical briefing. I know you requested it. There will be 10 minutes for your opening remarks. Then we will go into the rounds of questioning.

Thank you. I'm sorry about that.

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Members, good afternoon. Before I begin, I'd like to acknowledge that I work on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

We are pleased to be here today to support the committee's work on Bill S-245, which seeks to address the remaining lost Canadians. While the bill is well intended as drafted, the bill would not address all remaining lost Canadians and would have some unintended consequences if passed in its current form.

Before outlining these concerns, I'll provide a brief overview of the bill and then touch on lost Canadians, past legislative amendments and the first-generation limit, as these are relevant to the committee's consideration today.

In terms of a description of the bill, Bill S-245 is seeking to address the remaining lost Canadians by doing three things.

First of all, it would amend the Citizenship Act to automatically confer citizenship on some persons born abroad in the second or subsequent generation who lost their Canadian citizenship because they did not take the required steps to retain it under the former section 8 of the Citizenship Act.

Second, the bill also amends the citizenship legislation regarding automatic citizenship for those born abroad to a Canadian parent and seems to attempt to delay the implementation of the first-generation limit to automatic citizenship by descent, by moving the date from April 17, 2009, and pushing it out to June 11, 2015.

Last, for those who would automatically become citizens as a result of the bill as drafted but who may not wish to become citizens, the bill would allow for regulatory amendments to extend access to what's called a simplified renunciation process to renounce or give up Canadian citizenship.

Before touching on the specific issues with regard to Bill S-245, which I will come to in a moment, I will briefly summarize the former provisions of the Citizenship Act that led us to the emergence of lost Canadians, which the committee will be discussing in further detail today.

As I am sure you are aware, the requirements and some of the complexities of the first Canadian Citizenship Act of 1947 and former provisions of the current Citizenship Act created cohorts or groups of individuals who lost or never had Canadian citizenship status. These individuals are known to us as “lost Canadians”. Changes to citizenship legislation that came into effect on April 17, 2009, and June 11, 2015, restored status or gave extended citizenship for the first time to the majority of lost Canadians up to the first generation born abroad to a Canadian parent. Before the 2009 amendments, a person born abroad in the second or subsequent generation to a Canadian parent were considered Canadian citizens from birth, but only until they turned 28 years old, unless they met certain conditions to comply with the former section 8 “retention of citizenship” provisions.

The conditions for those impacted included a requirement to have lived in Canada for one year before submitting an application to retain their citizenship or having established a substantial connection to Canada. If they did not meet the conditions and apply to retain their citizenship before they reached their 28th birthday, they would automatically lose their citizenship. Some were not even aware they had to meet these requirements and lost their citizenship unknowingly.

These section 8 retention requirements were repealed as part of the amendments to the citizenship legislation in 2009. The 2009 amendments also established a clear first-generation limit to the right to automatic citizenship by descent. This means that today any child born outside Canada to a Canadian parent is automatically a Canadian citizen from birth if they have a parent who is either born in Canada or came to Canada as an immigrant and subsequently became a Canadian citizen. That child does not need to do anything to keep their Canadian citizenship. However, those born abroad in the second or subsequent generation do not acquire automatic Canadian citizenship from birth, as the committee is aware. Instead, they have to apply for a grant of citizenship. The first-generation limit now makes clear who does not have a claim to automatic citizenship by descent and needs to instead apply for a grant of citizenship versus those who've obtained it automatically.

On the impacts of Bill S-245 as drafted, as mentioned, the past provisions of the Citizenship Act led to the emergence of lost Canadians. There is a risk that passing Bill S-245 as is will have unintended consequences.

As drafted, the bill would have at least three unintended consequences of concern as it would, first, create new distinctions, as it only remedies some of the lost Canadians who lost their citizenship due to the former section 8. Second, the bill as drafted would create more lost Canadians. Third, it would automatically give citizenship to some for whom dual citizenship may be problematic for legal, professional or other reasons.

The issues with the bill are such that they would have negative impacts for lost Canadians and other Canadians, if not addressed through the consideration of remedies in the form of amendments to the bill at the committee stage.

First, Bill S-245 aims to restore citizenship to persons who lost it as a result of the former section 8 retention provisions. However, the bill as drafted does not restore citizenship to all those lost Canadians, since it only restores citizenship, as drafted, to those who never applied to retain it. The bill excludes those who took steps to retain their citizenship by making an application but were unsuccessful. This would create a distinction by not addressing all of those affected by the former retention provisions and not fully addressing these lost Canadians.

Second, the bill as written is unclear as to the effect on the first-generation limit but could be interpreted as moving the limit for anyone born between April 2009 and June 2015. Moving the date for the first-generation limit from 2009 to 2015 would have a significant impact on untold numbers of persons born abroad in the second generation or beyond, who would automatically acquire Canadian citizenship by descent from birth. Though well intentioned, this is problematic, as some would be negatively impacted and not everyone would benefit.

Specifically, those born abroad to a Canadian who have obtained a grant since 2009 would automatically become citizens by descent under the bill, meaning they would become the first generation born abroad, and thereby lose their ability to pass on citizenship by descent to their own children, if born abroad, which would create more lost Canadians. In other words, these children, who are not yet born, would lose access to automatic citizenship because of the shifting of the first-generation limit under the bill as drafted.

The bill would still exclude anyone born outside Canada beyond the first generation after June 11, 2015, from citizenship by descent. As such, the bill gives citizenship, or seeks to give citizenship, to some persons born abroad in the second or subsequent generation but not to others, which is a concern and would create more distinctions.

Third, in addition to these issues, some persons who become citizens automatically under the bill may find this problematic for legal, professional or other reasons, depending on the country where they live or work or other circumstances. The bill does provide for a regulation-making authority to allow for simplified renunciation in such cases where folks were born under the former section 8. However, regulations take time, and the bill lacks the necessary provisions to allow for the time to address implementation issues such as this one, which is important to mitigate impacts and concerns.

Finally, Bill S-245 is well intentioned and can be supported, but several amendments would be needed to remedy these issues with the bill as drafted. Amendments would be necessary to ensure that the bill better meets its intended objectives, to ensure more equal treatment of similar cohorts affected by the former section 8 retention rules, to minimize the introduction of new distinctions and to mitigate the risk of unintended consequences such as creating more lost Canadians.

With this, Madam Chair, I conclude my remarks. We would be pleased to address any questions that the committee members may have.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thanks a lot.

We will now go to our rounds of questioning. Our first round will be started by Mr. Kmiec.

Mr. Kmiec, you have six minutes. You can please begin.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going to go to the group who discussed those three unintended consequences.

You said that it only remedies some lost Canadians, that it would create new lost Canadians and that it wouldn't restore it to some persons the bill would apply to but who were rejected. Regarding that third group, those people who applied and were then rejected in retaining their citizenship, what were the reasons for the rejection? You're basically implying that we should expand the bill to include them, but if they were rejected then, what were the reasons for those rejections?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

You are correct. The bill excludes those who applied and who were rejected. We don't have any way to know what the reason for the rejection was, but the concern is that the bill has a differential impact in addressing some of these lost Canadians and not others. Those who applied had to demonstrate a connection to Canada, whereas the bill automatically remedies others who never applied and who may have a limited connection but nevertheless lost their citizenship automatically.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Can I just ask, how does your department...? Don't you keep files of those persons you reject, who applied at some previous point? Have those files been lost since then?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

The department does maintain information. Those who are impacted by the retention provisions were born abroad in the second generation since 1977. We may not necessarily have access to files going back that far in time in order to access the reasons not all those cases were accepted at the time.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

I want to ask you two more questions. I want to try to get them all in.

You talked about a substantive connection to Canada. How is that determined?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

In most cases applicants who were applying to retain their citizenship had to demonstrate they were resident in Canada for one year. That would have been the connection.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Is that for 365 days continuously at any point?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

That's correct.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

That was the only connection they had to demonstrate, that they were in Canada for 365 days.

Was it based on an attestation? Was it based on actual utilities bills and things like that?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

The department, at the time, would have had procedures in place in terms of various kinds of evidence that could be accepted to demonstrate residence. To my knowledge, it likely would have included the kind of proof you mentioned.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

I'm asking what the proof is. Would you take an attestation today, or will you actually require a person to show you utility bills from 25 years ago?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

The requirements were repealed in 2009, so I can't really speak today to what would have been required.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Okay.

During your presentation you talked about the bill's narrowness perhaps creating these unintended consequences. You used the word “problematic” as well. Why is it problematic? The narrowness of the bill is part of the reason I think it cleared the Senate so quickly, and I think part of the reason we're all debating it today as well. The narrowness of the bill has allowed it to sail through. Most people recognize there's a small group of lost Canadians who are impacted and that this would be a legislative way to fix an administrative problem that Parliament created after it repeatedly kept changing the Citizenship Act.

Why is it problematic?

3:55 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

The intent of the bill, to remedy lost Canadians, is one that the department or the government agrees with and can support. The issue is, as mentioned, that some who lost their citizenship automatically as a result of section 8 are included in the bill, and some others are not. To avoid creating distinctions, the bill could be considered for amendment at committee stage to cover all of those cases in the narrow cohort.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

The narrow cohort being the 1977 group.

3:55 p.m.

Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Nicole Girard

That's correct. It's those impacted by the former retention provisions.