Evidence of meeting #7 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was programs.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fraser  Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Paul LeBlanc  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Ronnie Campbell  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Mary Quinn  Director General, Strategic Policy and Devolution Branch, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Ian Potter  Assistant Deputy Minister, First Nations and Inuit Health Branch, Department of Health

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

I open this meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development on Monday, May 29, 2006.

Committee members, you do have your orders of the day before you. The main purpose of this meeting is to hear from witnesses. From the Office of the Auditor General, we have with us Sheila Fraser, Auditor General; Ronnie Campbell, Assistant Auditor General; and Glenn Wheeler, Principal.

From the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, we have Paul LeBlanc, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister of Social and Economic Policy and Regional Operations Sector; Caroline Davis, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services; Mary Quinn, Director General, Strategic Policy, Devolution Branch, Northern Affairs.

We also have with us, from the Department of Health, Ian Potter, Assistant Deputy Minister, First Nations and Inuit Health Branch.

Welcome to all, and thank you very much for appearing before this committee.

We'll begin with a statement from the Auditor General, Sheila Fraser. Welcome.

3:30 p.m.

Sheila Fraser Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We thank you for this opportunity to present the results of our audit on the management of programs for first nations included in our status report. As you mentioned, I'm accompanied by Ronnie Campbell, Assistant Auditor General, and Glenn Wheeler, Principal, who are responsible for this work.

Once a year, I prepare a report for Parliament called the Status Report. This report focuses on what the government has done to address recommendations made in a selection of previous performance audits, and assists parliamentarians to hold the government accountable for its stewardship of public funds.

Since 2000, I have issued several chapters on programs and services for first nations. We conducted this follow-up audit to provide a comprehensive assessment of the government's overall progress in responding to our previous audits, but also to identify reasons for progress on some recommendations and a lack of progress on others.

We followed up on seven audits completed between 2000 and 2003--audits that examined housing on reserves, health care, comprehensive land claims, economic development, third-party intervention, the food mail program, and reporting requirements for first nations. Federal organizations agreed with most of our recommendations and had committed to taking action. Overall we found that the federal government's progress has been unsatisfactory.

Today, I would like to focus on three issues that are important to the health and well-being of First Nations people, and that require particular attention. They are: mould contamination in houses on reserves; monitoring of prescription drug use; and the review of major entry points for the food mail program.

Problems with mould exist in many on-reserve houses, and mould contamination has been identified as a serious and growing health and safety problem. In our initial 2003 audit we noted that the three responsible organizations — Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, and Health Canada — established a committee to address the problem.

In this audit, we found that despite the activities of the committee, no federal organization has taken responsibility for assessing the full extent of mould contamination and developing a strategy or action plan for addressing the problem.

Mr. Chairman, you may wish to ask the government to identify a lead organization to take responsibility for addressing the problem of mould in on-reserve houses, and to provide your committee with an action plan and timetable, and then regular progress reports.

The second issue is prescription drugs. Through its non-insured health benefits program, Health Canada funds prescription drugs for first nations people and for Inuit. First nations are concerned about the misuse of prescription drugs, and the problem is magnified by significant differences in health standards between first nations people and the rest of Canadians.

In audits as far back as 1997 we reported that the department was slow to intervene when potentially inappropriate use of prescription drugs was observed.

In our 2000 audit, we found that Health Canada had updated its review protocol for drug use to better identify and follow up on cases that suggested misuse of prescription drugs. This protocol involved following up with clients, physicians, pharmacists, and professional bodies and had some positive impact.

But the department stopped this protocol, because management was unsure of the appropriateness of gathering this information without either a legislative mandate that would explicitly allow for this type of analysis or client consent, which would grant permission to the department to analyze private health information. In 2001, departmental officials informed the public accounts committee that within the year they expected to resume this analysis for 70% of clients after it had received their consent.

The department was able to obtain consent for only 25% of clients before stopping this effort in 2004. That same year, we reported that the number of clients obtaining more than 50 prescriptions over a three-month period had almost tripled compared with what we found in our 2000 audit.

In this audit we found that after five and a half years Health Canada finally resumed its detailed analysis of prescription drug use, but it is unable to identify reductions in inappropriate use that are the result of its intervention. The audit also found that the department still has not sought legislation for its non-insured health benefits program. If consent has not already been obtained, the department's approach is to seek consent case by case before informing health providers or pharmacists of concerns about possible misuse of prescription drugs.

Mr. Chair, you may wish to ask the department to provide your committee with a detailed report setting out its current approach to addressing this serious issue and progress reports identifying reductions in inappropriate use that are the result of the department's intervention.

Finally, the federal government's food mail program subsidizes the costs of sending nutritious perishable food by air to Canada's North in an effort to increase the level of nutrition in the diets of northerners.

In 2002 we reported that 140 communities were eligible for this program in the three territories and in parts of northern Labrador, Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. Program users in these communities must arrange with wholesalers to send eligible food to Canada Post facilities at one of the 20 designated entry points. Canada Post then assumes responsibility for flying the perishable food to the community within 48 hours.

In our 2002 audit we found that departmental officials, northern merchants, and consumers have suggested that access to more southerly entry points would have a positive impact on both the quality and choice of food and on the time it takes to transport it. However, at that time, no systematic review had ever been done by Indian and Northern Affairs Canada to assess the locations of entry points. We recommended that the department undertake such a review to determine whether changing entry points would make the program more effective.

In this audit, we report that still no comprehensive review has been done. Instead, the department reviewed only one of the program's entry points and it has no immediate plans to review any others. Mr. Chairman, you may wish to ask the department what actions it has planned.

Mr. Chair, I would now like to turn your attention to the work that we did to understand why some recommendations were implemented and others were not. We identified seven factors that appear to have favoured the implementation of recommendations. Absence of these factors seems to have hindered their implementation and impeded significant change in the lives of first nations people.

We found that federal organizations were more likely to have made satisfactory progress if programs and initiatives were well coordinated, received the sustained attention of management, involved meaningful consultation with first nations, considered the capacity of first nations to carry out programs in their own communities and worked to increase this capacity, and established and involved first nations institutions to carry out program goals.

Further, ensuring that programs and initiatives are based on appropriate legislation helps to clarify roles and responsibilities, eligibility issues, and other program elements.

Finally, we found that the different roles of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada are a critical factor that may have caused an erosion of trust between the department and first nations over time. The department's different roles create at least the appearance of a conflict between its fiduciary responsibilities for first nations and its obligations to act on behalf of the crown.

In my view, ensuring that these factors are fully considered when adjusting existing programs and implementing new ones will make a significant difference in the life of First Nations people.

Mr. Chairman, you may wish to ask the government how it intends to ensure that these critical factors are considered as it moves forward in delivering programs and services to First Nations people.

Mr. Chair, that concludes our opening statement. We would be pleased to answer any questions committee members might have.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you, Madam Fraser.

The opening questions will be from the Liberals. Ms. Neville, please

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much for being here today. I have many questions, and I'm trying to prioritize them in my own mind.

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

I'm going to ask you a few questions, and we'll see how the time allotment is.

In its response to your report—I noted this in the House today—the government cited the Kelowna accord as proof of progress that the federal government and the provinces are making gains on aboriginal issues. When you read this response, do you accept that the Kelowna accord was indeed a type of broad, long-term plan, which your report believes is a necessary and integrated approach to solving the issues? How many of the seven critical factors that you identified were identified in Kelowna as important in implementing your recommendations?

Those are my first questions.

My next question relates to the proposed Accountability Act. I know that you appeared before the committee there. We're all aware that you have been working with the grand chief to establish an independent auditor general for aboriginal peoples. I wonder if you could tell the committee here what progress you are making with the first nations on the aboriginal auditor general and how we can move forward with this expeditiously.

My next question--and I will stop there--is something you identified in your report.

The seventh issue that you talked about was the conflicting roles of the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs. I'm really interested in hearing you expand on that, because that is of utmost importance to many.

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Thank you.

On the first question, concerning the government's response, this is the response that was confirmed at the time when we went to print, from the deputy minister, which we presume reflects the current government's response to this. We have done no work vis-à-vis the Kelowna accord. We would only look at implementation of things like that, or effects after the fact. So I'm really unable to answer if any of the factors that we note in the report as contributing to success are present there or not, because we haven't done any work on it.

On the proposed legislation, on Bill C-2, you are correct. We appeared, we made some comments about overall how some of the provisions in that proposed legislation would apply to us as an office. One of the provisions would give us the mandate to be able to audit recipients of grants and contributions who had received over one million dollars, and that would, of course, include first nations. There's a specific exclusion for self-governed.... There's a very limited number who would be excluded under that. We tried to explain to the committee studying it how we would implement that provision if it were to become law, that we believe it is the responsibility of the government and the government departments and program managers to ensure that the funds transferred as grants and contributions go to the purposes for which they were intended, and that is not ultimately a responsibility of the external auditor of the federal government.

We also mentioned—you are correct as regards first nations—that we have had discussions with the Assembly of First Nations and others, and there was a meeting with government officials to discuss the possibility of the creation of an auditor general for first nations. It is at the very early stages, still at the point of discussion, though there has been an agreement to try to work more substantively on it. There are, of course, major issues around the mandate. If such an office were created, what sort of mandate would they have? How would that office deal with the 630-some first nations? That's one of the major issues that has to be researched, in addition to a number of others. So it's still at very early stages.

And on the last issue, there are two areas where we are very reluctant to give comment: one is on policy, of course, and the other is what we call machinery of government. So government can organize itself as it wishes, and the Auditor General is very reluctant to talk about that. But when we see a case like this, where there are conflicting roles, where the department is on the one hand providing services, is the object of lawsuits, is negotiating treaty claims, it can create, as we've mentioned, at least the appearance of a conflict. The relationship between government and first nations absolutely has to be built on trust, and some of these conflicting roles, we believe, can damage that relationship. So we were trying to make the point that government, in either renewing its programs or bringing in new programs, certainly needs to consider this and whether there are better ways of doing things to try to avoid that appearance of conflict.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

My time is up?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Yes, it is.

We'll move on to the Bloc, please. Mr. Lemay.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Ms. Fraser, gentlemen, thank you for being with us.

We have here today representatives from the Kitcisakik aboriginal community who have neither water nor electricity, and who must still go and draw their water from the river. This community does not exist for the department. It only has a band number. It's all very complicated. Does the Auditor General report on particular Indian and Northern Affairs Canada files, or does she only investigate when matters are brought to her attention?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Mr. Chairman, our mandate consists in auditing the programs and activities of the federal government. At this time, we have no mandate with regard to the first nations.

However, in all of the audits we carry out, we request the cooperation of the first nations, and I must say that we have received from them exceptional cooperation. We feel that it is important to demonstrate the impact of the programs and concerns they may have when we do our work. We cannot audit the books of a first nation or aboriginal community, because this is not at all a part of our mandate.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

I read your report very carefully and made copious notes. What can we do to ensure that your recommendations will not fall on deaf years?

I have my friends to the right and friends across the way, who are in government. In point 5.37 of your report, you say: We estimated that four federal organizations required at least 168 reports annually from First Nations communities — many with fewer than 500 residents.

As politicians and members of this committee, how do we let Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, or anyone else, know that enough is enough? Someone somewhere is at fault. What power do we have? Must we be content with asking questions, as you do in your report, or can we say this afternoon that enough is enough?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

The work of parliamentary committees is certainly essential if there is to be a follow-up to our reports. We have in fact prepared a distinct report, the Status Report, which focuses on what the government has done to address our recommendations. Increasingly, departments are preparing specific action plans which include timetables and the names of the persons responsible, and we ask committees to help us to do this follow-up work. Committees may regularly ask for follow-up reports.

I know that a certain amount of work was done. The representatives of the government may want to provide further explanations. The Treasury Board Secretariat did its own study on this matter and established that the government received 60 000 reports per year from first nations. Everyone agrees that there are too many reports and that the system has to be simplified, but who will take the lead and act?

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

You talk about mould in your report. I can give you examples, because in my riding of Abitibi-Témiscamingue, there are five Algonquian communities. One of the most pressing problems they have is that all of their houses are mouldy.

In your remarks you suggested to the chairman that he may wish to ask the government to identify a lead organization. What is the lead organization? Is it the Department of Health or Indian and Northern Affairs Canada? I can't tell from reading your report, I can't tell from reading the documents from Indian and Northern Affairs, and I still can't tell when I look at the documents from Health Canada. Who is responsible? Who do I need to talk to tomorrow morning?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

That is an excellent question, and we don't know either. In our view, a department or agency must be responsible for identifying the problem and preparing an action plan to correct it. You might want to ask the government representatives if they know who is responsible.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Is there someone from the government who can tell me? Can the departmental representatives answer me? Is the CMHC, or Public Work and Government Services Canada, responsible? Who is it?

3:50 p.m.

Paul LeBlanc Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Mr. Chairman, may I answer?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

We have another minute and a half. If you could answer that difficult question in that time, it would be great.

3:50 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Paul LeBlanc

I will give you a partial response on behalf of our department. As the Auditor General noted, it is obvious that the respective mandates of at least three departments are relevant to this issue.

At Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, we have programs that allow housing to be built or renovated. The mould problem falls within the parameters of those programs.

The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation also has programs to renovate and build housing which could be tapped into to help solve this problem. The corporation has, in addition, a training program to help residents who live in this housing and in these communities to better control this situation and play an active role.

Health Canada, through its inspections, can help the communities and evaluate situations which may threaten the well-being and health of residents, and offer advice to those who live in this housing and to community leaders to help them find a collective solution to the mould problem.

So, at least three departments have relevant programs. It is very important that the departments work together and coordinate their efforts, which they have been now doing for a few years. We accept the Auditor General's recommendation to improve strategic planning and coordination among these departments and programs, Mr. Chairman.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you.

We will move on now to Madam Crowder.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Fraser, for coming before the committee today.

I must admit it was with some dismay that I looked at the results over a number of years with really not the kind of action in significant areas that will fundamentally impact on first nations, Inuit, and Métis. Before I go into my other question, I simply want to clarify that the response from the government in this report is the response from the current government, not from the previous Liberal government.

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

The response was received after the election. It was from the deputy minister. We have to assume that it represents the views of the current government.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

So the words that were written around the consensus-based decison-making displayed at the Kelowna first ministers meeting has been written by the current government then.

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

It was written by the deputy minister, which would--that's right--reflect the views of the current government.