Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 31st, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

Madam Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

I have to ask a question about accountability, given the language in your presentation to us today. You talked about the importance of working closely...I'm paraphrasing, but I'm imputing that you meant working closely with aboriginal communities in terms of developing and designing whatever is going to happen.

I heard you say today that Bill C-2 is going to go ahead with accountability for first nations. I know you're aware that the Assembly of First Nations has been working diligently on an accountability package and that the Auditor General herself, in her testimony before the legislative committee on May 9, indicated support for the initiative that the AFN, as well as a number of other officials, has been working on, and she supported an aboriginal, first nations auditor general.

I know you can't confuse reporting with accountability, but certainly the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs did not fare well in the Auditor General's report around streamlining of reporting--the excessive amount of reporting and lack of coordination and lack of review, and all those kinds of things.

So I wonder if you could talk about your comments around Bill C-2 in that context.

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

I think you're expressing some of your own ideas rather than summarizing mine. But fair enough, I'll--

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I'm leaping to consultation as a method by which we would hope to deliver policy and legislation, because I would expect that people in aboriginal communities have a far greater perception of what's needed than bureaucrats and people in Ottawa.

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

Let's talk about consultation first in a general way. Consultation is a legal, arguably constitutional obligation, but it doesn't eliminate the need for decision-making at the end of the day. Consensus is always desirable. I fully believe in the constitutional obligation to consult. I think most of the work I've done in my career has been based on that principle. But at the end of the day, governments are obligated to make decisions. We will work in consultation with first nation partners and other levels of government, but at the end of the day we're accountable. We'll make decisions and then we'll be accountable to the electorate on whether we've made the correct decisions. I think that's the courage that comes with conviction and it's part of leadership.

In terms of the Federal Accountability Act, I appreciate what the Auditor General has said, and certainly we need to be sure she's properly resourced and that she has not only resources but culturally sensitive people who can deal with first nation audits.

At the end of the day, what we are hearing, though, loud and clear, from Canadians across the country, with really a high degree of support and unanimity on this, frankly, is that to the extent that the Government of Canada is expending public funds on aboriginal programs and services, then the rules that apply in terms of what's been described as “follow the money” need to apply to first nation programs and services just as to any other Government of Canada programs and services.

If the first nation is a constitutionally recognized first nation--and there are, as I recall, 17 that are scheduled in the Federal Accountability Act--then they are in a different legal and constitutional circumstance and the Federal Accountability Act will not apply.

The other first nations receive program dollars from the Government of Canada, and there's no reason why the Auditor General shouldn't be able to comment on that to Canadians, as she comments on any other areas of federal expenditures.

I welcome what the AFN and others have to say about this. Certainly it's something we'll have a look at, but we're not hearing really any disagreement publicly about the need to have an accountability act that applies to all Canadians.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I would like to clarify that. My understanding, though, is that aboriginal peoples are not arguing that they should not be accountable. They are simply stating that they should be involved in the process that helps develop it. As we've seen, Indian and Northern Affairs to date has not been capable of putting in mechanisms that are meaningful and relevant.

I think the Auditor General's report of 2002 outlines extensively the reporting challenges.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Just give that question very briefly; you're out of time.

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

It's not the department who will be conducting the audits.

Let me just say this, because I know you're a fair-minded person. The people who work at the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs are amongst the finest people who work in the Government of Canada. The executive team of this department, I think, is comprised of extraordinary people under Mike Wernick's leadership. It's a really fine group of people.

In terms of operating in the field, this is not an easy department. There are some tough responsibilities here and some very difficult circumstances to be dealt with. These are people who are doing this, who are dedicated. They don't get paid nearly enough for the difficult jobs that they take on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Next question, please.

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

Mr. Wernick, I think would like me to continue, but....

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I noticed his head was getting bigger.

It's the government's turn and I am going to put forward a brief question. Will the government have to amend the Indian Act or bring in a new act in order to enshrine those educational rights to first nations people?

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

I think what needs to happen, Mr. Chair, will require new legislation. It will require consultation with first nations for sure. It will require working relationships with first nation education authorities and with provinces, but at the end of the day I believe there's a need for a legislative base for the programs and services that the federal government provides to aboriginal Canadians, first nations.

It's not limited to education. Water is a good illustration. It's perhaps a simpler step and it was the first step we took, but you can apply the same logic of what has to happen to education, social services, and some other areas.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

I'm going to move to Madam Bennett. Would you like to ask a question?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you.

I guess I still am having trouble, Minister, concerning the Kelowna accord. I was there at the April cabinet meeting when there was such celebration about striking these five tables and really developing a bottom-up solution where all groups could come together on the hugely important issues around health, education, economic development, housing, and accountability. Those groups met for 18 months and came up with real solutions, with real commitments, and real targets. I guess I still don't understand what the government's problem is with these bottom-up solutions that actually were created and crafted by the people who know the most about this.

How can you actually tear this up as though it were bad, instead of just going forward, when there doesn't seem to be anything better on offer? I find it insulting to the work these people did for 18 months coming up with real solutions, given all the time those people spent. I spent a lot of time with the people on the health committee, and I just feel.... How can you look these people in the face who spent so much time working on these solutions?

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

Let me respond.

First, I'm not ripping anything up, because there is nothing to rip up; there is no accord. There is nothing that was signed by the premiers.

Please, listen to me.

On health in particular—you talked about the Kelowna accord on health—there was no Kelowna accord on health, because the Province of Quebec specifically didn't agree with what was put on the table. You cannot table here in the House of Commons the Kelowna accord in respect to health, because it doesn't exist; there was no accord. So don't accuse me of ripping it up, because it doesn't exist.

I was at Kelowna—

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

That is such a technicality.

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

I was at Kelowna. It is not a technicality. There was no consensus. You can take the other areas and work through them, and you will find that there was no consensus around the table on how dollars were to be spent, how they were to be divided up. You can talk to any of the participants who were there and you won't find a consensus.

What I have said is that we will continue to work forward with the five aboriginal organizations, and frankly, they've all been very complimentary of the new government. They have all been very complimentary about working together with the new government to build on some of the consultation that happened over the last several years. Mr. Fontaine said that today in a press conference, that he was respectful of the new government. Yesterday, or two days ago, Mr. Dewar said—

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

“Respectful” is a very different choice--

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

—very clearly that he is prepared to work with the new government, and that—

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

They have no choice.

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

—the new government was well within its rights to reconsider where we move forward.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

How about a very specific question? We know that in order to get away from the colonization in the way health and health care is delivered with our aboriginal peoples, with Métis and first nations, we actually have to have more nurses and doctors.

There was $100 million put there for health human resources for our aboriginal peoples in last year's budget, and it was not to be released until estimates in December. What has happened to that money, and how many more aboriginal doctors will we have graduated by the time we should have? How many more slots do you have for aboriginal physicians and nurses so that we can stop this terrible colonization that is taking place?

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We'll let the minister answer the question, please.

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

To be fair in respect to that question, Ms. Bennett, you appreciate, I think, as much as anybody in this room that a lot of these issues cut across departmental lines. I'm not the Minister of Health, and it's the Minister of Health who is responsible for about $2 billion of the $9 billion the Government of Canada expends on aboriginal programs and services. I'm sure he'd be pleased to come here and to answer those specific questions.

I can tell you, with respect to the other issues that were talked about at the first ministers meeting, that we're working on them. We're working in a respectful way with our first nation partners, and they're pleased with the working relationship they have. We're all happy to move forward.

As I say, in the Kelowna process there was no consensus at the end of the day. The Province of Quebec wasn't even engaged in the process, because the aboriginal leadership from Quebec didn't take part in the process; they weren't even at the table in Kelowna. So don't portray this as a national consensus that exists in an accord, because it doesn't exist.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you. You're out of time. It's the government's turn.

Mr. Minister, with respect to the figures that were used in the Kelowna accord, were there any estimates to build that case for putting so many dollars for education and so many for health and so many for housing? Was there work done on that to put forward those figures? I'm just asking the question.

Mr. Minister.