Evidence of meeting #24 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was subsidy.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Patrick Borbey  Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Elizabeth Copland  President, Nutrition North Canada Advisory Board, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Jamie Tibbetts  Director General, Devolution and Territorial Relations Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Michel Robillard  Vice-President, Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency
Paula Isaak  Director General, Natural Resources and Environment Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Michael Nadler  Director General, Policy and Planning, Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Good afternoon, members.

Welcome, witnesses and guests.

This is meeting number 24 of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

Our order of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), is the study of northern territories economic development: barriers and solutions.

Members, you'll know that in the first hour we'll actually be resuming consideration on a specific subject that relates to what we used to know as the food mail program, and is now Nutrition North Canada. This was on agreement by the committee to consider this topic, and we've put it under the rubric of our study because it certainly is relevant. This was the motion by Monsieur Lévesque, I think. Monsieur Lévesque put the motion.

So we're going to go first to our officials here. We welcome back Patrick Borbey, from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. He is joined by Elizabeth Copland and Mr. James Tibbetts. Ms. Copland is the president of the Nutrition North Canada advisory board and Mr. Tibbetts is the director general for the devolution and territorial relations branch.

Mr. Borbey, we're going to go to you for opening comments from yourself and Madam Copland.

Mr. Lemay, you have a question?

3:30 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

There is a matter that I would like us to resolve immediately, Mr. Chair. You implied that our committee could continue its meeting until 6:00 p.m. in order to be able to submit our recommendations. I do not know whether you still want to do that. We could resolve this immediately.

Personally, I would agree that the meeting be extended until 6:00 p.m. if necessary, if that is still your intention, but we must at least be able to adjust our schedules by the end of the day.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Yes, thank you. In fact, I proposed extending our meeting by 15 or 30 minutes; we were scheduled to conclude at 5:30 p.m.

I would want to dedicate the full two hours for the regular meeting, but I raise the possibility that if members were able we could consider the issue of providing instructions to the analysts on this subject area after the meeting, at 5:30. It may not take too long. You'll know that is the scheduled business for Thursday, but if members are agreeable we could begin that at 5:30 and see how we do. If we can get that completed, we would not be required to have our meeting on Thursday afternoon. I think members were notified of that possibility.

Would you like to proceed on that basis?

3:30 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

All right.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Mr. Bevington.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

I have a little trouble with that. It was scheduled for Thursday, and I really don't want to see that when in our work we put 40 or 50 meetings into the subject we don't take some decent time with the drafting. I would prefer to keep it on the Thursday.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Okay.

Just to be sure, we wouldn't be looking at any drafts at this point. It would simply be a starting point, if you will, an outline, and likely some idea of the size and scope of the report. We can at least give the analysts some context to proceed from, and then, as they go into the summer break, the analysts will begin to prepare a draft report for consideration of the committee when we come back in the fall. So it wouldn't be really to do anything in terms of the content of the report, but mainly just looking at some of the key themes and sections, and possibly the size of the report, how comprehensive it would be. That would be about it.

If it's okay with you, Mr. Bevington, we seem to have agreement from most of the members. We could give it a try at 5:30. If there are legitimate things that we still need to discuss on Thursday, fine, if we can't get it done, but—

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

What's the timeframe then at 5:30? I have an engagement. I can be here for about 15 minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Why don't we give it a try, and we'll see how we do.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

And if we're not satisfied, then we can continue on—

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

By all means, yes.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

We're stuck with him.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Of course.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Is everyone is agreeable to that? I didn't see any other hands up.

Mr. Borbey, thank you for your patience while we dealt with that little piece of committee business.

I appreciate Mr. Lemay bringing it up here this afternoon.

Let's go ahead with your presentation and Ms. Copland. Then we'll go to questions from members.

3:35 p.m.

Patrick Borbey Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is a pleasure, of course, to appear along with my colleagues here and to answer your questions to the best of my ability.

Indian and Northern Affairs Canada recently completed an extensive review of the Food Mail Program. During this review, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada officials held more than 70 engagement sessions across the country to collect the views of a wide range of consumers and stakeholders. INAC also worked extensively with subject matter experts to develop alternative models for the subsidy program. The results of this review showed that the existing program is not economically sustainable and that its 40-year-old design does not provide the most effective and efficient means of supporting access to nutritious food to residents of isolated northern communities.

One of the main issues of the Food Mail Program is its lack of financial sustainability. The program's annual base reference level of $27.6 million had to be replenished every year through supplementary funding to operate the program which cost close to $60 million during the last two fiscal years. In its most recent budget, the government announced an important investment to fund a new food subsidy program and nutrition and health promotion initiatives. This investment will provide stability to program funding by increasing its annual budget to $60 million on an ongoing basis.

On May 21, 2010, Ministers Strahl and Aglukkaq announced the replacement of the food mail program as of April 1, 2011, by Nutrition North Canada, a new market-driven model that will be a sustainable, efficient, cost-effective, and transparent means of helping northerners access nutritious foods in eligible, isolated, northern communities. To complement the subsidy program, ministers also announced that Health Canada will invest new resources to promote healthy eating in eligible communities.

The new program model, which responds to the growth, development, and increased capacity of the north, will create an environment where market forces and competition will lead to a more effective and efficient means of transporting foods to eligible communities. The shortened food supply chain will reduce the handling of fresh foods destined for the north. This change will improve the quality of food that is available to northerners and reduce costs associated with spoilage. Instead of funnelling the subsidy through Canada Post, INAC will provide the subsidy directly to retailers and wholesalers, who will make their own supply chain arrangements to ship food to eligible communities. This improvement will enable retailers and wholesalers to negotiate the best possible prices for their consumers and to maintain better quality control.

Under the Nutrition North Canada program, northern retailers and southern suppliers will make their own supply chain arrangements to ship eligible items to eligible communities, at their convenience and discretion, and pay the full shipping rate they have negotiated with the airline. Northern retailers and southern suppliers will then claim the subsidy from INAC for eligible items shipped by air, as per a pre-determined subsidy rate per kilogram basis, customized by community. The concept of entry points will not longer exist and the government will not intervene in shipping routes or schedule decisions.

A key aspect of Nutrition North Canada is that INAC will enter into formal arrangements with retailers and suppliers to enforce program requirements such as responsibilities tied to transparency of the subsidy, accountability, marketing, data reporting and audit. These arrangements will provide INAC with the leverage required to ensure that consumers benefit from the subsidy. None of this is possible under the existing model since neither INAC nor Canada Post has this kind of arrangement with retailers.

To ensure that smaller northern retailers can continue to have access to subsidized foods, these businesses will have the option of ordering eligible foods from southern suppliers who will be registered with the program and who will be able to claim the subsidy from the department.

Under the new program, personal orders will be retained to preserve a measure of competition for northern retailers and provide consumers with flexibilities related to special dietary needs. Individuals, establishments, and institutions will benefit from the subsidy by ordering from southern suppliers registered with the program.

As well, existing flat shipping rates will be replaced by subsidy rates per kilogram, customized by community. More remote communities with higher costs will have a higher subsidy rate than less remote communities.

Subsidy rates for the first year of the program will be similar to the level of subsidy currently provided by INAC under the Food Mail Program, and will be adjusted at least annually thereafter based on forecasts and food prices per community.

Another important element of Nutrition North Canada is the focus on the most nutritious perishable foods. To that effect, food of little nutritional value will be removed from the food mail program as of October 2010. In addition, to promote the use of the most efficient unsubsidized modes of transportation, such as the sealift and winter roads, non-perishable foods and non-food items will also become ineligible. Exceptions will be made for communities without any regular surface transportation access, such as Old Crow in the Yukon. Eligible perishable foods will be separated in two categories, and the category containing the most nutritious foods, such as fruits, vegetables, eggs, and milk, will receive a higher subsidy level than the other category.

Another new element of Nutrition North Canada is the subsidization of the transportation of commercially produced country foods. This will support increased access to these traditional foods, which are vital sources of nutrients for northerners. Minister Strahl has already indicated that he would like the advisory board to look at options to further develop the support for access to country food.

With respect to the external advisory board, as noted at the outset, Mrs. Elizabeth Copland agreed to act as the chairperson for this board. Her nomination is very recent, and other members of the board have yet to be appointed. Mrs. Copland can provide you with an overview on the role of the advisory board and how she thinks it can help this important program improve over time.

Mr. Chair, before giving the floor to Ms. Copland, I would like to say that Indian and Northern Affairs Canada believes that the implementation of the suite of changes and improvements I briefly described will lead to a program that is more cost-effective and that will ensure greater efficiency and transparency.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you, Mr. Borbey.

Now let's go to Ms. Copland, and welcome.

3:40 p.m.

Elizabeth Copland President, Nutrition North Canada Advisory Board, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

[Witness speaks in Inuktitut]

Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Borbey.

Mr. Chairperson and committee members, my name is Elizabeth Copland, and I am from Arviat, in Nunavut, where I have lived most of my life and have spent more than two decades working for the people of my community. I have taken on a variety of roles in my community, from serving as Arviat's first female mayor, to coroner, to economic development officer. I am deeply committed to ensuring that northern communities like Arviat realize their true potential in terms of health and prosperity.

Recently, I was asked by Minister Strahl to chair the advisory board for the new Nutrition North Canada program. I welcome the opportunity to appear before this committee because I believe that the new advisory board will give northerners a direct voice in the new program. So often government programs are developed in isolation from the communities they attempt to serve, but the new food subsidy program has been the product of extensive engagement with northerners, the people who will use the program. I look forward to continuing this engagement with Indian and Northern Affairs Canada during the transition from the current food mail program to Nutrition North Canada.

As I understand its role, the advisory board will provide a vital link between consumers and stakeholders and the decision-making process. The board will meet formally three times each year, alternating between on-site meetings and videoconference calls when possible; we will hold public sessions and invite presentations by stakeholders as well as by subject matter experts, academics, and government specialists. We will be asked to formulate our advice to the minister on a consensus basis so as to establish a broadly based agreement, but not necessarily unanimity among the board members.

At this time, I am the only member who has been named to the board. Over the summer, four to six additional members will be appointed by the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, in consultation with the Minister of Health. We will collectively represent a wide range of the primary perspectives, backgrounds, and interests of northern residents and communities. We will establish a work plan with particular attention to ministerial requests for consideration of priority issues. I understand that the minister has already suggested country food as one such priority issue when we have our first meeting in the fall.

Today is an opportunity for me to hear from you, the members of the aboriginal affairs and northern development committee. What do you see as the issues for the new program going forward? What are your views on the priorities for supporting affordable access to healthy food in northern communities?

As part of its advisory capacity, the board will have leeway to direct its focus to the most vital issues surrounding food security in the north. I would like to say also that I think the advisory board is an important oversight feature of the new program to ensure that it is truly responsive and accountable to the needs of those it is designed to serve.

I am pleased to have been asked to chair this board and I look forward to the important work we will do in the next ten months and beyond.

Matna.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you very much, Ms. Copland, and congratulations on your appointment.

Now we're going to go to questions from members. It's basically seven minutes for both the questions and the answers. We leave it to members to confine their questions within that zone. The more succinct you can keep your answers, the better.

Let's proceed with Mr. Bagnell for seven minutes. Mr. Bagnell, you have the floor.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Matna, nakurmiik, thank you.

Ms. Copland, I'm delighted that you've been appointed to the advisory board. I'm glad there's a board. I think you'll be very helpful. As they try some new things, you can say whether or not they're working, and that will be great.

Patrick, I wonder if you could forward to the clerk this afternoon by e-mail your presentation. That would be very helpful.

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Patrick Borbey

Yes, certainly. I thought it was already presented.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Do we have it? Okay, that's perfect.

I'm going to talk mostly about your speech here. On page 2 in the third paragraph, you said it cost about $60 million in each of the last two fiscal years. But when we did the estimates and we had the financial people here they said that last year it was $66,200,000.

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Patrick Borbey

The difference between the two is that this was an estimate based on the previous year's experience. That was at a time when fuel prices were going up, so we were experiencing a fairly steep increase in the cost of the program. During the course of the year, after the estimates were approved, we saw a levelling of fuel prices. As a result of that, the program right now is coming in at just below $60 million for the last fiscal year. That will be in the public accounts.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Okay, good. Thank you.

There was a big outrage, not about the minister's announcement, but on the possible recommendations that he could have announced. And fortunately, the good news is that he didn't make those recommendations. One of them would have eliminated the private orders. He has kept the private orders. But he presents the concept that entry points will no longer exist. I'm assuming this means that private orders can be made anywhere, that there are no specific entry points.

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Patrick Borbey

For the private orders—or personal orders, as they call them—there are a number of suppliers right now. But most of the personal orders are probably concentrated among a small number of suppliers in southern Canada.

We're going to have to go through a process whereby we will be able to make those suppliers eligible. Of course, we can't have every single grocery store and supplier across Canada eligible. We'll have to make a list that people can use, because we'll have to have contribution agreements or arrangements with those suppliers.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Right now, they can go to any grocery store in my riding in Whitehorse—all the different specialty food stores, etc.—and it's administratively cheap for INAC, because they only have to pay Canada Post or Air North. Wherever they get it from, they have full choice.

If you told the people of Ottawa that you were only going to pick a number of stores they could buy from and that it was going to be more complicated for the department, that wouldn't make a lot of sense to me. We'll see how it goes in the riding.