Evidence of meeting #37 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was provinces.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
I understand you reimburse them, but if you reimburse the province for delivering child welfare and protection services, why don't you give first nation agencies the same rates?
5 p.m.
Director, Social Programs Reform Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
We do.
5 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
So you're saying that in every province, first nations agencies get the same rates on reserve as the province is using off reserve?
5:05 p.m.
Director, Social Programs Reform Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
For the rates for the types of care they're providing.... For example, the provinces set differing rates for foster care, institutional care, group homes, and those rates we pay whatever the province sets.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
5:05 p.m.
Director, Social Programs Reform Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
That's correct.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
The Auditor General said that they didn't, when she did this report.
5:05 p.m.
Director, Social Programs Reform Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
No, we do.
5:05 p.m.
Director, Social Programs Reform Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
We've always been providing that.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
That's not what the Auditor General said. She said that where you don't have an agency delivering, you'll pay the provincial rates to the provincial organization, but when you have a first nations agency delivering, you don't pay the provincial rates. That's what her report said.
5:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I'm just offering maybe an explanation. The Auditor General may not have been referring just in instances of maintenance costs, which is what Odette was responding to.
In cases where--we call it maintenance--the child is removed from the family home and is either placed in a group home, a foster home, or institutional care, we reimburse, to whomever is providing that, the exact amount of that provincial rate.
The Auditor General may have been referring more generally to...because agencies do more than just put children in care. Agencies have operating costs. Agencies also in the past have provided small amounts of prevention services. Under the enhanced prevention, they provide more.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
I guess my point is this. If you already agree on provincial rates in one aspect of the services, why don't you agree on provincial rates for all aspects of the services? That's what I don't understand. You already have a precedent of agreeing to provincial rates for some aspects of the services, so why don't you agree to provincial rates for all aspects?
5:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
We don't disagree, but I guess where we have a difference of opinion is on how you get there.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Well, you look at the provincial rates and you go, “That's what you pay for the service, so therefore we're going to give first nations the same rates.”
5:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
We feel that what you need to do is have a negotiated process with the province, with the first nation, and the federal government to agree on what services will be provided—
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Sorry, but you know I only have five minutes.
Can you imagine if first nations would actually say, no, we won't accept the higher rate that provinces pay? Can you imagine a circumstance where they would say that?
5:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It's not just the rate. What you have to do is be able to provide the service that is required.
On maintenance, it's very clear, because on maintenance you have different types of maintenance, and you know what the costs are and the province sets specific rates for those things.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
You're out of time, Ms. Crowder.
Did you want to finish that thought, Ms. Cram?
5:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
No, I'm okay.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Thank you very much.
Thank you for being here, Ms. Cram.
You just mentioned Jordan's Principle; we all want to avoid the negative consequences of disagreement between levels of government. What was the response of provincial authorities and the First Nations to the tripartite agreements? Was it an enthusiastic response? Is there good cooperation between our government and the other levels of government?
5:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
With regard to Jordan's Principle, the First Nations are very enthusiastic because they want to be able to have access to a problem-solving process in the event of disagreement between governments and people who provide services. They are very enthusiastic. I must say that the same is true of the provinces with which we have had discussions and entered into agreements.
In the case of those provinces where we have provided for special measures, it was the First Nations that told us that processes were already in place. As they have not experienced any situations in which children have not received the necessary services, they do not think it is necessary to do anything more than what they are currently doing.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
That's good.
I heard that the Assembly of First Nations had filed a complaint with the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal. Can you tell us how the federal government responded to that complaint?