Evidence of meeting #14 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was reserves.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Margaret Buist  Director General, Lands and Environmental Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Andrew Beynon  Director General, Community Opportunities Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Jolene Head  Acting Director, Lands and Environment Operational Policy, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Colleagues, I will call this fourteenth meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development to order.

Today we have witnesses from the department coming to speak to us specifically about the additions to reserves. We've had some of these witnesses here before.

Mr. Beynon, Ms. Buist, and Ms. Head, welcome, and thank you for coming.

Thanks so much for being here. We appreciate your briefings. I can tell you that I've learned a lot over the last number of meetings, and I'm certain that colleagues have as well. We'll turn it over to you now and ask you to make your opening comments.

Ms. Buist, I believe you'll be bringing us comments, and then, of course, we'll have questions for you, so please take charge and take over.

11 a.m.

Margaret Buist Director General, Lands and Environmental Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members, for inviting us back today.

As the chair said, my name is Margaret Buist. I am the director general of the lands and environment management branch in Aboriginal Affairs. With me today is Andrew Beynon, who has been here before, as you know. He's the director general of community opportunities. Also here is Jolene Head, the director of lands and environment operational policy.

Andrew and I both had the opportunity to speak with you last week regarding land tenure and land registration on reserve. Today we're going to take you through the reserve creation process, its legal origins, and departmental policies that relate to it, and we'll try to describe some of the issues and challenges faced by various stakeholders with respect to reserve creation. Finally, we'll highlight some of the achievements and milestones related to reserve creation by the department.

Lands have been added to reserves over time for many reasons, including: as part of historic treaties; to settle outstanding claims; for exchanges of land due to the expropriation of existing reserve lands; to accommodate expanding reserve populations; and more recently, for economic development purposes.

Canada currently has a decade-old policy to guide its decisions on when and how lands will be added to existing reserves or when new reserves will be created. The policy and the associated procedures are time-consuming, expensive, and complex. Many issues have been raised, not only by first nations, but by other parties, including the Office of the Auditor General, which in 2005 and 2009 criticized the government for the delays and costs involved in the additions to reserve process.

Aboriginal Affairs has responded to these criticisms by revisiting the 10-year-old policy, by establishing a joint working group with the Assembly of First Nations to examine policy changes, and by creating changes internally to our own procedures and systems to try to make things more efficient. The changes have begun to show progress.

In the last five years, significant gains have been made in adding lands to reserves. Since 2001, over a million acres of land have been added to reserves across Canada, with more than two-thirds of that amount happening in the last five years. More is yet to be done, and our department is committed to working with first nations to continue finding improvements to existing systems. Challenges will continue as new claims are being negotiated in the prairie provinces and Ontario, which are likely to greatly increase the amounts to be added to reserve.

For a brief refresher on what a reserve is, I'll review some background information to set the stage for understanding the challenges of adding to reserve.

A reserve is a tract of land that has been set apart for the use and benefit of a band, the legal title to which is vested in the crown. Title is held by the federal crown, and the federal crown has the authority to create reserves. The land, when set aside as a reserve, is for the benefit of the entire band, not just one individual.

Reserve creation is the process of setting apart land by way of royal prerogative; it is not found under the Indian Act. There's a long history of reserve creation, and it begins with the Royal Proclamation of 1763. There are two types of reserve creations.

The first is called additions to reserve; you may hear the acronym “ATRs”. The granting of reserve status to a parcel of land that is added to an existing reserve is an ATR.

A new reserve is the granting of reserve status to land that is not within the area of an existing reserve community. According to departmental policy, additions to reserve proposals are for land located in the general geographic area of an existing reserve so that services and infrastructure can be extended at little or no cost. New reserve proposals are for land that is not in the geographic area and will therefore be more costly. As a result of that, new reserves are not as common as additions to reserve.

For the three prairie provinces, additions to reserve are reinforced by optional legislation called the Claim Settlement Implementation Acts. These allow lands to be set aside as a reserve by ministerial order rather than executive order of the Governor in Council.

These acts also provide for pre-reserve designations of land, which allow the land to be developed in advance of the addition to a reserve, so as soon as it's approved, the development can be under way.

In addition, in the three prairie provinces there are treaty land entitlement framework agreements that have been negotiated on a tripartite basis among Canada, the province in question, and a first nation. These are specific claim settlement agreements in which first nations are compensated for lands owed to them under historic treaties that blanket the prairie provinces. Lands are acquired through this process and converted to reserves in accordance with the federal additions to reserve policy, which I'll now talk to you about.

Under the policy, any proposal for an addition to a reserve or the creation of a new reserve must fit into one of three categories. These categories are: legal obligations, so these are obligations that result in law from treaties or claim settlement agreements; court orders, and those are not as common; and other legal reasons, such as the return or exchange of lands appropriated under the Indian Act.

The second category is what we call “community additions”. That encompasses needs due to community growth for housing, schools, economic projects, or infrastructure enhancements. This category also includes the return of unsold surrendered land.

The third category is new reserve creation or other reasons. All proposals that don't fall within the first two categories come within this section of the policy. Examples include new reserves for landless bands, band relocations, and economic development. This is the most restrictive category under the policy, and it requires extensive justification in order to add lands to reserves.

There's also a fourth category, which is currently under discussion with the AFN. As you may know, the new Specific Claims Tribunal will have the power to order compensation for successful claims. It's anticipated that this compensation will be used to purchase lands added to reserves. This new category that's being developed will allow for this new type of additions to reserves.

Let me now take you through some of the issues and challenges faced by all of the parties involved in an addition to a reserve. Those parties include first nations, municipalities, provinces, and, of course, Canada. These issues and challenges range from tax loss, consistency in land use and zoning, complexity in the negotiation processes, and the time and resources involved in reserve creation.

There are many positive examples of reserve communities that contribute to the quality of life of neighbouring municipalities, but there's still an element of resistance to the notion of creation of new reserve lands. First nations, our government, and provincial governments must work together to explain the benefits and necessities of reserve creation so that proposals for reserve creation can be accepted and understood by all Canadians.

Municipalities often express concern about the loss of taxes when a reserve is created. First nations are required to negotiate a tax loss adjustment to compensate for the effect of a reduced tax base and the reduction in municipal services. This, however, is not meant to compensate the municipality fully or indefinitely for the gross level of lost taxes, and that remains a concern to municipalities.

Another concern raised by municipalities is the need for consistent application of land use planning and zoning on adjacent reserve lands. Once lands have been added to a reserve, the first nation has the authority to determine how to use their reserve lands according to the needs and interests of their own community; municipal jurisdiction doesn't apply to the reserve lands anymore. However, as a prerequisite to the approval of the addition to a reserve, the federal policy requires that first nations need to negotiate joint land use planning and bylaw harmonization as much as possible.

Another issue and challenge is the negotiation of municipal service agreements when these are required for reserves that are adjacent to municipalities. There are also negotiations related to the purchase of the land to be added to reserve, of course, and there are negotiations needed with third parties that may have interests already on the land that's needed to add to reserve, such as easements, leases, and permits. All of these negotiations can contribute significantly to the delays experienced in the reserve creation process.

There are no formal dispute resolution mechanisms in place in the federal policy to assist the parties when negotiations break down. Municipalities have expressed concern that first nations and the department can proceed with the reserve creation despite their objections. First nations have expressed concern that municipalities and third parties that refuse to negotiate agreements in good faith can hold up for long periods of time the addition to reserve process.

A final challenge is cost of reserve creation. The cost of purchasing land at fair market value can be prohibitive for first nations, particularly when they're looking at urban or resource-rich lands to add to reserve and they have only a fixed amount of compensation from the claim settlements with which to purchase these lands. The cost of completing all the necessary pieces that go with additions to reserve, like surveys and environmental site assessments, is very high, even more so when land is remotely located.

These issues and challenges have a significant impact on the level of resources required and the length of time it takes to add land to reserve in Canada. We're working with the Assembly of First Nations in tackling these issues head on and revisiting our federal policy.

More specifically, to address these challenges, the department and first nations have begun to address them directly. For example, there's an organization called the National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association, or NALMA, that trains land managers on reserve, and together with the department they created an ATR tool kit for first nations at the first stage of adding lands to reserve to assist them in developing their proposals. We've also implemented a national tracking system, an IT system, to monitor the progress of proposals and as a project management tool to assist us in helping first nations.

As I mentioned earlier, we're also undergoing a complete review of the ATR policy in chapter 10 of the “Land Management Manual”, and we're examining our internal processes that have developed over time to look for efficiencies. We're developing further tools to assist first nations at the early stage when they're developing their proposals and negotiating with municipalities over service agreements or with third parties over their interests.

Finally, as I mentioned, we have a large of piece of work going forward with the Assembly of First Nations to explore the policy changes for ATRs, which I've described to you here today.

As I indicated at the beginning, over the past 10 years over a million acres of land have been added to reserve. In addition to the treaty land entitlements, specific claim settlement agreements since 2006 have provided the potential for a further half million acres of future ATRs. When fully implemented, the treaty land entitlement agreements in the prairie provinces will result in the conversion to reserve of over two million acres of land in Saskatchewan and over a million acres of land in Manitoba--more than twice the size of P.E.I.

Approximately 61% of the land selected by first nations in Saskatchewan has been converted to reserve, and about 43% in Manitoba. More agreements are currently being negotiated in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and Ontario, which will add even more land to reserve.

In conclusion, the additions to reserve respect Canada's legal obligations to first nations and they provide for additional land for much-needed housing, infrastructure, and economic development opportunities. Our department is committed to working with first nations to meet the challenges of adding lands to reserve while continuing to explore other avenues for land tenure, which you've already heard about, under legislation other than the Indian Act, such as the First Nations Land Management Act.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you very much.

We're going to start the rounds of questioning, colleagues.

Ms. Duncan, for seven minutes.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for appearing again. We appreciate your knowledge and experience and hope you can come back after we hear directly from some of the first nations about their experience and what their issues are.

I have two requests for information, which you don't have to answer now but which would probably be helpful to us.

One, how many of these applications for new reserves are in process, how many of those involve municipal land, how many of those are considered specific claims, and how many have been given final offers?

My second request for information would be on the report you mentioned at the beginning about an improved process for dealing with the new reserves and on what the membership is of the advisory committee you mentioned at the outset.

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Lands and Environmental Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Margaret Buist

Do you mean the joint working group with the AFN?

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Yes. Thanks.

I have two quick questions and then I'm going to turn the rest of my time over to my colleague, Monsieur Genest-Jourdain.

I wonder if you have the same process for dealing with compensation requests on prior deletions from reserve. Also, how many of these requests for new land are related to the fact that there have been severe diminutions of the original allocated lands? I would give the example of the Six Nations, where the original lands allocated to them were tenfold what they're left with now, or the Paul First Nation in Alberta, which has been severely cut back.

I'm curious to know what the relationship is between where large parcels of land were allocated originally and then taken away, and whether there is a relationship between those disputes and those who are asking for additional lands.

11:15 a.m.

Andrew Beynon Director General, Community Opportunities Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

I will take a first stab at answering that question.

I think we'd have to get back to you with the exact percentages and so on, for precision, but broadly speaking I would say that the number of cut-off claims, which is what they're typically referred to as, or claims related to removal of lands from reserve historically, is actually a smaller category than the total amount outstanding as treaty land entitlement—in other words, where historic treaties have said there is a promise to create a certain amount of reserve land and that hasn't been carried through. They're a smaller category.

The issue most often is one that has to be resolved through a specific claim, so that first nations in British Columbia or Saskatchewan, for example, will file a claim saying there was land that was taken away from the reserve and it was, for whatever reason, an improper procedure—for example, an invalid surrender of lands. When that specific claim is negotiated and resolved, sometimes the parties will come to the conclusion that there will be a certain form of cash compensation, or sometimes there will be a decision to say, “Well, we want to now add some lands to reserve”.

When that is the result of a specific claim settlement, it turns into an addition to reserve, and the process is one under which you again go through these categories of working through the availability of the land, the purchase of the land, dealing with third-party interests, such as municipal issues and so on, and then ultimately setting it aside through an order in council.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

If I can just clarify quickly, I'm trying to understand this. Obviously if you're a first nation you're trying to find the most advantageous process whereby you're going to get additional land, so on the way it's working now, is it more advantageous for you to forget the specific claims process or the general claims process and say that you're simply going to apply for some new lands? Which is the more expeditious process and which is given a more expeditious, favoured response?

11:20 a.m.

Director General, Lands and Environmental Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Margaret Buist

Well, any of the specific claims that Andrew referred to, so if it's a question of lands having been taken improperly in the past.... I'll give you the example of railway lands, which is a very common situation whereby railway lands were expropriated and the first nation would like to get them back. Anything like that falls under the first category of legal obligations.

When we reach a settlement with a first nation, whether it's a specific claim for the return of expropriated land or it's a treaty land entitlement where not enough was given under an historic treaty, those both fall within our first category of priorities for ATRs, and that's the legal obligations category.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

It's clear as mud.

11:20 a.m.

Director General, Community Opportunities Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Andrew Beynon

Maybe I can add just a little more to that. When you're asking the question about which is the most advantageous route to go, as Margaret said in her opening remarks, the priority under the federal policy is on legal obligations and those that are related to the expansion of a community--for example, for community needs for housing.

For the third category, where there's more of a discretion, where a first nation comes forward and says they have an economic development opportunity and they'd like to have an addition to reserve lands, that's actually less of a priority for the resources of the federal government.

The logic of it is that there is not an infinite amount of resources. The priority effort is trying to deal with those outstanding legal obligations. So that is the easier avenue, though it does require establishing the lawful obligation.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Go ahead, Jonathan. Then we'll have the next round.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

You just have a minute left. If you just have a short question, there might be time to answer.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC

I am going to ask my question in French.

What are the consequences of the first nations land management regime on the course of your department's activities, on the one hand?

11:20 a.m.

Director General, Community Opportunities Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Andrew Beynon

Unless I misunderstood, you want to know what effect the new first nations land management regulations have on additions to reserves.

The communities that are interested in participating in this regulation sometimes want to solve issues connected to the addition of lands before they become first nations that are governed by it. However, it will also be possible for a first nation, even after it becomes one of the first nations that abides by the regulations on first nations land management, to pursue a specific or historical claim.

Thus the fact of becoming a participant in this modern regulation, rather than coming under the Indian Act, does not eliminate any remaining legal obligations.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you very much.

Mr. Wilks, for seven minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming today.

To refer to your remarks on pages 4 and 5 specific to the two types of reserve creations, the additions to reserve and new reserve, and then the federal additions to reserve policy and the three policies of legal obligation, community additions, and new reserve creation or other reasons, I wonder if you could explain further what the benefits are of adding land to reserves.

11:25 a.m.

Jolene Head Acting Director, Lands and Environment Operational Policy, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Mr. Chair, there are three main benefits to adding land to reserves.

The first is the economic benefit. Adding lands to reserve provides lands and resources for economic development by creating more jobs, increasing incomes for families, and independence from public support. Also, new businesses attract other businesses, to add to the vitality of the community.

Second are the legal benefits. Margaret and Andrew spoke to that in terms of adding lands to reserve to conclude specific claims settlement agreements, including TLE. Claims are truly settled not when agreements are signed, but when they are implemented, which is what reserve creation does.

Lastly, there are the social benefits. It provides land for housing and other first nation needs.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Thank you.

On page 2 and carrying over to page 3, you say, “The policy and the associated procedures are time-consuming, expensive, and complex”. First nations have expressed concern that the process of adding land to reserves is time-consuming and costly. In that effort, can you talk about what contributes to this and expand on what the department is doing to address these challenges?

11:25 a.m.

Acting Director, Lands and Environment Operational Policy, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Jolene Head

Thank you.

Adding land to reserves is a complex process requiring due diligence on the part of the federal crown, and it is dependent on the active participation and agreement of a number of parties, including the Government of Canada, first nations, the provinces and municipalities, and other affected interests, such as third party interests.

The actual time it takes to create a reserve has ranged from less than one year to well over five years. It depends on the issues that are involved with each particular situation. Many variables affect the length of time.

For example, the negotiation to acquire land can take a considerable amount of time, depending on the availability, the price, and the willingness of the seller. Also, in instances where remote tracts of provincial crown land are selected, land surveys are completed as seasonal conditions permit and often require multiple seasons to complete--for example, in the northern regions of the prairie provinces--and it depends as well on the size of the parcel being surveyed.

In addition, environmental site assessment and potential remediation of the condition of the land are required before lands are transferred to Canada and then set apart as reserves. This, as Margaret has said, can be costly and very time-consuming.

We're addressing these challenges in several ways. Annual funding is provided both for surveys and for environmental site assessment and remediation when required. Funding is provided to NALMA for training and for developing ATR proposals. Internal procedures for processing ATR submissions are being streamlined. Finally, the policy is being reviewed through the joint working group with the Assembly of First Nations.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Is there time remaining?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

There are three minutes.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Thank you.

On page 7, you said, “Municipalities express concern about the loss of taxes when a reserve is created”. Further on, you said, “This is not meant to compensate the municipality indefinitely for the gross level of lost taxes...”. I wonder if you could expand upon that a bit. Has there ever been a set time for a municipality to come to an acceptable agreement with first nations? Do you seem to be getting some headway on that?

11:25 a.m.

Director General, Lands and Environmental Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Margaret Buist

There's no set time. That's one of the difficulties. I'm not sure it's possible to set a time, but certainly the idea of assisting in the negotiations is one of the things we're taking a look at: how can we help move those negotiations forward when they reach sticking points?

There are some first nations that have been negotiating for years with various municipalities to try to get service agreements in place and some that get them in place in a matter of months. It's a very independent situation. So I don't think a time limit would work, but certainly some view to providing assistance with respect to those negotiations I think is definitely one of our considerations.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

You have two minutes.