Evidence of meeting #27 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was million.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Wernick  Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Colleagues, I want to call meeting 27 of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development to order.

Today we have the minister.

As you can see from the agenda, colleagues, we have two orders of business. One is a review of supplementary estimates (C), as our committee has wanted to undertake. Of course, since we made that arrangement we now have the main estimates as well that have been tabled in the House and referred to this committee. We'll take this opportunity to question the minister with regard to both allocations.

Colleagues, you can see the supplementary estimates (C) referred to this committee. You can also see the main estimates. The litany of estimates that have been referred to our committee are there, as well as those that are referred under the Health portfolio.

Minister, it is a privilege to have you here at our committee. We are thankful to have you.

Colleagues, I can inform you that, as per normal, the minister will be here for the first hour and then his officials will remain for the second hour.

We'd like to turn it over to you, Minister, to give us your statement and then we will begin with questions to follow.

Thank you for coming. We'll turn it over to you for your opening statement.

3:30 p.m.

Vancouver Island North B.C.

Conservative

John Duncan ConservativeMinister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development

Thank you very much, Chairman.

I appreciate this opportunity to discuss supplementary estimates (C) for fiscal year 2011-12 and the main estimates for fiscal year 2012-13 for Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada. This committee has an important role in reviewing the department's expenditures.

The amounts listed in both sets of estimates represent investments that support this government's larger approach to improving the quality of life of aboriginal peoples and northerners.

I will touch on other aspects of our government's approach in a moment, but I'd like to begin by addressing a few items in supplementary estimates (C) for 2011-12. These estimates include initiatives totalling slightly more than $70 million.

The largest single amount, $47.4 million, involves the emergency management assistance program. These funds are needed to reimburse costs incurred on reserve by provincial, territorial, and emergency management organizations. These organizations provided response and recovery services on reserves following floods in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, and Alberta, and wildfires in Ontario and Alberta.

The second-largest item included in supplementary estimates (C) is $5.1 million for acquisition of fisheries licences by Maa-nulth First Nations and commercial crab licences by Tsawwassen First Nation. This investment honours commitments by Canada during the negotiations that led to the Maa-nulth and Tsawwassen final agreements. Those are British Columbia treaties.

The main estimates for fiscal year 2012-13 forecast department expenditures of approximately $7.8 billion. This is a net increase of $429 million, or 5.8%, over the main estimates for 2011-12.

This is partly accounted for by an increase of $286 million in the cashflow for the negotiation, settlement, and implementation of specific and comprehensive claims, primarily for the settlement of the Coldwater-Narrows specific claim. As you are aware, our government has prioritized addressing the backlog of such grievances, some having been unresolved for decades. We've made excellent progress in this regard.

The details of forecasted expenditures for the main estimates are available to you. I can also assure you that Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada will continue to make strategic and targeted investments that respond to the needs of aboriginal people and northerners, while at the same time ensuring that resources are aligned with priorities. We will continue to actively monitor resource pressures and demographic growth pressures.

Mr. Chair, the investments listed in both sets of estimates represent only one of the means this government has to support northerners and aboriginal peoples in improving their quality of life and achieving their significant potential within a strong Canada. Legislation is another important tool, as the members of this committee understand very well.

This government has a number of legislative initiatives under way, both in the House of Commons and the other place, and I look to the members of this committee to advocate for passage of these important proposals.

For instance, last November we introduced Bill C-27, the First Nations Financial Transparency Act. This proposed legislation supports democratic, transparent, and accountable first nation governments by requiring that chiefs and councillors publish their salaries and expenses.

On December 6, Bill S-6, the First Nations Elections Act, was introduced in the Senate. This legislation addresses long-standing issues with the current election system under the Indian Act and is nearing the end of a thorough review by the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples.

Bill S-2, the Family Homes on Reserves and Matrimonial Interests or Rights Act, has passed through the Senate and is now awaiting second reading in the House.

Just last week we introduced Bill S-8, legislation proposing a mechanism to safeguard the quality of drinking water in first nation communities, and committing in the bill to work with first nations on the development of the regulations.

Also as part of our legislative agenda, we are continuing to move forward with legislative and regulatory changes to modernize the federal regulatory system for project reviews through the action plan to improve northern regulatory regimes.

Partnership, whether legislative, policy, or program, is another key component of this government's approach. The shared goals prioritize supporting northerners and aboriginal peoples to participate more fully in Canada's prosperity.

I'm pleased to report significant progress. Through ongoing devolution and self-government negotiations, Canada continues to work with partners to create practical, innovative, and efficient governance models. For example, negotiations continue between the Government of Canada and Government of the Northwest Territories towards a final devolution agreement. This will be an important step in the political and economic development of the Northwest Territories.

International Polar Year is another example of a successful initiative that has created important partnerships for Canada with an emphasis on our north. The strength of these relationships will be demonstrated when, between April 22 and 27, the Government of Canada will welcome the world to Montreal for the International Polar Year closing conference. Over 2,500 participants will attend, including leading polar scientists, aboriginal leaders, Arctic community members, industry representatives, and policy- and decision-makers in order to review the work that has been undertaken and to discuss the way forward for advancing Arctic science.

Partnership, of course, takes many forms. We are also continuing to work alongside the Assembly of First Nations through the Canada and first nations joint action plan. A growing spirit of collaboration was evident during the crown and first nations gathering held earlier this year, in which all participants declared their intention to go beyond the joint action plan and set the context for change. This spirit is also reflected in a series of practical agreements that address specific issues, such as on-reserve education and child and family services.

Seven tripartite education agreements are now in place across the country. The most recent agreement was concluded in British Columbia earlier this year, and builds on existing partnerships in that province. It will provide first nations students in British Columbia with access to quality education programs, whether they attend school on or off reserve.

To inspire further progress, on June 21 last year the Government of Canada and the Assembly of First Nations launched an independent national panel on first nation elementary and secondary education. The panel's role was to lead an engagement process and provide recommendations on how to improve first nations elementary and secondary education. On February 8, the national panel released its final report. We are reviewing the recommendations in the report carefully and are considering the next steps on education reform.

Mr. Chair, there can be no doubt that our government recognizes the importance of a sound education for all Canadians. We recently demonstrated our commitment to progress on education through our support of the honourable member for Manicouagan's opposition day motion on first nation education.

Improving education outcomes is crucial to making progress on a critical issue: economic and social development. The reality is that barriers continue to hinder the full participation of aboriginal people in Canada's economy, so we are also continuing to turn to willing partners, aboriginal and non-aboriginal, in both the public and private sectors, to find workable solutions to these obstacles to economic development.

The federal framework for aboriginal economic development introduced in 2009 is a case in point. Developed in partnership with stakeholders, the framework is a business-oriented opportunity and results-driven policy approach.

By means of the framework, we are working toward a more systematic identification of economic opportunities for aboriginal people, a greater leveraging of partnerships, and a modernization of land management regimes. As this committee is aware through its ongoing work, that is why, in budget 2011, our government took action to reallocate $20 million over two years to respond to the growing interest from first nation leaders in participating in the first nations land management regime.

As a result of this investment, we recently announced that 18 additional first nations will be participating in the regime. New signatory first nations will be able to opt out of the land-related sections of the Indian Act and consequently manage their land, resources, and environment according to their own land codes, laws, and policies. They will now be able to take advantage of greater economic development opportunities at the speed of business.

Ultimately, this government aims to ensure that all Canadians, regardless of where they live—north or south, on or off reserve—can share in and contribute to Canada's prosperity. Both estimates support existing programs, partnerships, and legislative projects. I am confident that the items under review will lead to further progress for aboriginal peoples, northerners, and all Canadians.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll do my best to answer any questions that members of the committee may have pertaining to supplementary estimates (C) and the mains.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you, Minister. We appreciate that.

I was remiss in not introducing the deputy minister, Michael Wernick, and the associate deputy minister, Colleen Swords. Thanks to you as well for joining us this afternoon.

Ms. Duncan, we'll now turn it over to you for seven minutes.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for agreeing to come before our committee. We've been looking forward to this and we're looking forward to your responses to I'm sure many good questions around the table.

As you are fully aware, you hold a very large portfolio and there are many areas on which we would like to ask questions, so we're going to have to focus in on just some of the areas that your department administers. In my questions I'll be touching on treaty implementation, what we might see under the deficit reduction action plan, and the truth and reconciliation process.

In our committee we've been fortunate in our review on land use and lands management to hear from a number of first nation leaders on treaty negotiation and treaty implementation. As you're aware, modern treaties are negotiated over a very long time, with the first nations incurring substantial costs—and the government as well, of course—and those costs are deducted from the first nations settlement.

The treaties are of course constitutionally entrenched. Under the first nation final agreements and the self-government agreements, the government has committed to deliver additional funds, comparable to the relevant provincial or territorial jurisdiction, to establish education infrastructure, self-governance, and so forth.

We've been hearing concerns at our table, as well as in my meetings with first nations, that the government has been chronically underfunding using misplaced formulas. To establish and deliver self-government is far more costly to administer than for Indian reserves, I am advised by first nations, and many of these first nation communities are in very isolated areas, so the costs are highly escalated because they have to attract people to live in an isolated area and also provide housing, travel, and so forth.

I appreciate that you noted in the main estimates that additional funds are being provided for a large array of matters under treaties, including negotiation, the payout, and ongoing administration of those treaties. Yet the supplementary (C) estimates show $11.4 million transferred from treaty-related matters to other programs. I'm wondering if you could explain how you account for the reduction in payment, given the large demands.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC

Is that your question?

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Yes.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC

Okay. Thank you very much.

With regard to funding implementation for modern treaties, some modern treaties have been around long enough that we've had serious negotiations on things like the financial transfer agreement. We just concluded those negotiations with ten of the eleven Yukon first nations. I think we're close, hopefully, to a resolution with the eleventh.

We just concluded the same thing with the Sechelt Indian Band, and that is, I think, the oldest self-government agreement in British Columbia. We're in discussions with Westbank and other first nations on self-government. I think all of these negotiations involve some positioning, but I do believe we are being responsible in our negotiations.

I'm just looking at a note here. You asked about the $11 million related to treaty-related measures. That is an issue of timing, so it just depends on which year it's spent, this year or next year. I hope that helps.

There have been treaty implementation issues over the years. I'm quite aware of them, but I think we have a good track record of resolving them, and we're committed to trying to do that.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thanks, Mr. Minister.

I noticed that you mentioned Yukon. I just spoke to the Council of Yukon First Nations today and met with some of them yesterday at the AFN conference on water in Edmonton. They advised me that there have been negotiations on a funding formula, and they're deeply concerned that the government is in fact not delivering under that formula. In particular, the agreement was that there would be comparable funding. Their argument is that they are being majorly underfunded in comparison with the transfers for the administration of the territorial government.

I also have a question for you about Nunavut. One of the representatives of Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated, Mr. Kunuk, testified and raised some concerns. He said they would prefer to avoid litigation and they've become extremely frustrated that the government is not delivering in a timely fashion the implementation dollars under the agreement. They're additionally concerned that their agreement is unique in that they can unilaterally call for arbitration, and yet the government has turned down17 requests for arbitration and as a result they have had to go to court.

Mr. Minister, I know I've talked to you before, and you don't appreciate litigious first nations. It sounds as though there are a good number of first nations that remain frustrated that the government is not living up to its commitments fully under these first nations final agreements and self-government agreements.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC

Well, litigation, in this portfolio, is a fact of life. We have gone out of our way to have an agenda that flows right from the Prime Minister's apology to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, to resolving old grievances, to a modernized, reformed, and much more speedy specific claims process. We have resolved some long-standing comprehensive claims. I believe we've moved in a positive direction on implementation.

In terms of your question about Nunavut, I've had regular meetings with Premier Aariak. We have worked with NTI, Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated, with the Government of Nunavut, and with industry towards fulfilling the last legislative commitment under the Nunavut agreement, which would be the Nunavut project planning assessment process. That legislation is something you can look forward to this year.

I'm not aware of issues beyond that.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thanks, Minister. Our time is up for that question, but I'm sure the member will be able to follow up, if necessary.

Mr. Rickford, you have seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for coming and spending some time with us today.

I'm going to jump right in on a subject matter that I think is foundational in the context of your department, and that's education. I would like to start by getting your thoughts on two recent or contemporaneous reports that I think we would be well served to consider. The first, of course, is the national panel on first nations elementary and secondary education. I'd like to hear from you on the significance of this report, with some specific views on the implications of this report for your important work in this regard.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC

Thank you for that.

I think we all have to take a step back and remember that this K-to-12 panel was commissioned as a consequence of a joint announcement I made last year with the national chief. There was a series of Assembly of First Nations meetings where indeed they landed on the fact that education was the priority in terms of joint action. We concurred.

This is an easy priority to set, because it's a cornerstone of creating healthy and prosperous communities. We welcome the focus that the report has brought to the issue.

We also have the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples report. We have an Auditor General report. We have many reports that all point in the same direction, that changes are needed in this area.

So we're guided in a very strong way to making some of the structural changes that are required in order to improve the education outcomes for first nation children on reserve, and we're committed to doing that.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Thank you, Minister.

I want to say that part of an important trend that I'm seeing here, whether we're talking about education, water, or sewer, is the partnerships with national first nations leadership organizations. I think you more than anyone appreciate and understand that it doesn't mean we're always going to agree on certain points, but I'm hearing from first nations leadership, certainly in the great Kenora riding, and from other constituents in this file, who appreciate the fact that they're getting a real opportunity to make inputs. I'm sure you concur with me when you say that this has really been dispositive, or certainly a determinant, for some of the success you're having.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC

Well, I consider that a compliment. We believe the best way to make progress is in partnership and with mutual respect.

I always go back to the water legislation, because the water legislation was basically presented with no first nations support on the first go-round. Now we have very significant first nations support.

We spent a year and a half saying we want to come to a place where both parties are pretty satisfied with the legislation. We did a lot of negotiations. I had to put some real political capital into that bill. My staff, the departmental staff—a lot of officials worked a lot of hours on that, many days.

I know that particularly the Alberta and Atlantic chiefs—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Excuse me, Minister. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I have another couple of questions about education—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC

Okay. Fair enough.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

—that I want to squeeze in here, and my colleague I think is going to be asking some tough questions on water.

The second report I would refer to is the one from the other place, from the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples and the national panel on first nation elementary and secondary school education. I'd like you to share your thoughts with this committee on that body of work—again, specific views and the significance of it.

Finally, Minister, I'd like you to discuss what I believe is foundational, and that is actually the strides we're making in the physical infrastructure on reserve with respect to building and rehabilitating schools. I'll leave my last couple of minutes for you to go through that.

4 p.m.

Conservative

John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC

Maybe I'll start from the back end, because I think we have made major progress on school infrastructure on reserves. We have made major investments. You could say that our core funding is running at around $200 million a year. In addition, we had very significant moneys through the economic action plan. We had significant moneys through the gas tax fund.

We were able to construct over 30 new schools and have major renovations to 22 schools. This goes a long way to fulfilling.... Well, basically, all of the shovel-ready and almost shovel-ready projects were made shovel-ready and constructed or had major renovations, so we're in a new place now. Moving forward, there's more work to be done, but I think we've made a major dent in a major backlog and we plan on continuing in that vein.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you, Minister.

Ms. Bennett, for seven minutes.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Thanks very much.

Thank you, Minister, for coming here today.

As we're actually discussing estimates, I think I want to talk about money. As you know, we've had some concerns--the comment from the UN declaration to the first nations panel on education that your comments and correspondence around these things being “aspirational” has been somewhat disappointing.

So I want to ask you a very simple question. Both the Auditor General and your own commission, on the national assessment of first nations water and waste-water systems, have concluded that major investments are needed to bring the safety of first nations water and waste-water systems up to a standard comparable to that of non-first-nation communities. Your national assessment said that $1.2 billion was required to do this. What do you believe is the amount of funding required to bring these systems up to a comparable standard?

4 p.m.

Conservative

John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC

Well, as you know, Carolyn, we did a national assessment. No other government had commissioned such an in-depth national assessment. I know that there was one done under the previous administration, but they avoided tackling some of the serious subjects, like the communities without piped water, for example.

Between 2006 and the end of this next fiscal year, we will have spent $2.5 billion on water and waste-water systems. That's a very significant amount of money. We've done a lot of the hard infrastructure and—

4 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

But I think the question has been whether there's a plan to get 100% of homes in 100% of the communities.... How much money would it take to get there?

4 p.m.

Conservative

John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC

Well, this is a moving target, and we can't give you a number right now. When I was in Alberta announcing the water legislation last week, I was asked that identical question—

4 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Because I think you and I have corresponded. We're not really interested in the legislation unless there's the money to go with it, right?

4 p.m.

Conservative

John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC

No, no, but we were talking about money. I was asked that exact question. Sixty percent of the risk in water systems nationally, and in Alberta, happens to be in operations and monitoring—