Evidence of meeting #7 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Louie  Chairman, First Nations Land Advisory Board
Jody Wilson-Raybould  Assembly of First Nations, First Nations Land Advisory Board
Philip Goulais  Director, First Nations Land Advisory Board
Austin Bear  Chair, Finance Committee and Resource Centre Board of Directors, First Nations Land Advisory Board

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

I'm going to call to order the seventh meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

Colleagues, we want to get started right away.

Witnesses and visitors, we do apologize, but we were caught off guard with some votes this morning. We apologize for the delay, but we're going to get moving here now.

This morning, colleagues, we have witnesses from the First Nations Land Advisory Board. We have Chief Robert Louie, who is the chairman. We have Chief Austin Bear, who is the chair, finance committee and resource centre board of directors. We have Leah George-Wilson, who is a director. We have Philip Goulais around the corner here, colleagues, if you can't see his name tag, and he is a director. We have Jody Wilson-Raybould, regional chief of the Assembly of First Nations.

Thank you so much for coming today. We do appreciate that you've taken the time to join us.

I believe, Chief Louie, you were going to start with a presentation.

Colleagues, I should just let you know that I had the opportunity to meet Chief Louie in his community this summer. It's a remarkable community and one that I would recommend committee members at some point, if they are in the vicinity, to visit. I appreciate the time we were able to spend together. It's a remarkable story of success of not only economic development, but also the preservation of a culture and of a community.

Thank you for that tour; I'll publicly say that.

Thank you for coming. Please, bring forward the testimony and then we'll have some questions for you.

11:35 a.m.

Chief Robert Louie Chairman, First Nations Land Advisory Board

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. My name, of course, is Robert Louie. I have been chief of the Westbank First Nation for about 20 plus years right now, and also chairman of the Land Advisory Board.

My traditional Okanagan name is Seemoo, which in our Okanagan language means “connected to the land”. So maybe it's somewhat appropriate, given the history of what I've been mostly involved with over my life span, a connection with the lands.

Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank you and members of the committee for the opportunity to have us before your committee here to discuss the frame agreement on first nation land management. I know your time is busy, as evidenced here this morning in your parliamentary hearings and so forth, but it's fortunate for us, because we have the majority of our signatory first nations here in Ottawa at our annual general meeting of the Land Advisory Board.

Yesterday, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, we passed, I think, through an historic event by the signing of a memorandum of understanding on funding that took ten years. It's a long time, but we signed it yesterday with Minister Duncan and we're appreciative of that.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I'd like to introduce you in a bit more of a formal way to some of the members of our Land Advisory Board who are with me.

Firstly, Philip Goulais is a former chief of the Nipissing First Nation here in Ontario. He was chief for 17 years there and also served in the capacity as Commissioner of the Indian Commission of Ontario. And Phil represented that commission for several years.

Also, I would like to introduce to you Chief Austin Bear. He is from the Muskoday First Nation in Saskatchewan. He is a chair of our finance committee and chair of our resource centres for the Land Advisory Board and has now served 21 years consecutively as chief of his community in Saskatchewan.

Leah George-Wilson is a former chief of the Tsleil-Waututh First Nation, the Burrard Band, in Vancouver. She's currently in law school completing her second year. She takes time in her busy schedule to serve as a member of the Land Advisory Board and we're very fortunate for that.

Jody Wilson-Raybould is the regional chief of British Columbia, elected by the chiefs of British Columbia on behalf of the Assembly of First Nations. She is also a practising legal counsel in British Columbia.

I also wish to bring to the committee's attention members of the audience here. I'm not going to list everybody, but we have one grand chief here, Grand Chief Joe Hall from the Stó:lo Nation in British Columbia. We have several other chiefs in the audience here. We have land managers. We have members of the Land Advisory Board resource centre, and really the expertise is in this room to talk about land management. If the committee has questions, I would like the opportunity to call upon the expertise that surrounds us in this room.

Mr. Chairman, we're here this morning to provide you with an overview on the first nations land management process to discuss some of the content that has been tabled in Parliament, our annual report, and to update you on that and also to discuss with you some of the goals for our future. Certainly we are more than willing to get into the questions, which will be the bulk of the time. We appreciate this time.

I would like to add, Mr. Chairman, that we are absolutely proud of the progress that we've made collectively and individually since we've had the opportunity to go into the framework agreement on first nation land management that was signed in 1996. The enabling legislation by the passage of the First Nations Land Management Act in 1999 has provided superb benefits. I'm talking about economic benefits and opportunities that have been created that have allowed for literally thousands of jobs. Our first nations across this country are contributing to the overall economy, and we're proud of that.

As well as exercising jurisdiction, the decision-making authorities we have and the law-making powers we have through the passage of this legislation, I stress, cannot be overstated.

To give you perhaps a sense of what I'm talking about, I wish to refer to the late Chief Joe Mathias, from the Squamish First Nation in British Columbia, a respected and revered visionary, nationally and provincially, a former hereditary chief, a long-time proponent of aboriginal rights, and a man who was widely recognized throughout Canada for dedicating much of his time and effort toward the goal of having our aboriginal rights recognized.

When the passage of the legislation took place in 1999, he made a comment to which I'd like to refer, because it underlies the importance of what we're talking about here. He said that to have first nations recognized as governments, with their own law-making powers and with control over their own lands, may be the single most historic accomplishment for first nations this century. That statement is held up by our communities and is very much respected, because in that statement he encapsulates the essence of the importance of what we're doing and the importance of why we are here today.

That is reflected by the number of first nations now involved in land management and by the number waiting at the doorstep who want to have an opportunity to pass their own laws and become decision-makers. We have a long list. In 1996 we had 14 first nations, which originally came up with the concept and banded together throughout Canada. They said they needed to make a difference here and that Canada needed to recognize their inherent rights, which included jurisdiction and law-making. They wanted to make a difference in their communities. That has been exemplified in what we have today.

Today 36 first nations across Canada have passed land codes, two of which, my community being one of them, have gone further than incremental self-government. We have gone into self-government in its full context. One of our communities, Tsawwassen, has gone into a treaty-making process and now is exercising its government. The land rules and the land code are the essence and the basis of that jurisdiction.

We have eight developmental first nations in the process. I wished and hoped to have said that we had a lot more, because there are a lot more on the waiting list. In fact, we have up to 80 first nations that have passed band council resolutions, put out letters and inquiries, and expressed an interest in formally becoming signatories. That is the significance. That is about one in six first nations in all of Canada, to give you some sense of the numbers.

The tremendous growth in the desire and determination of our first nations to take direct control over our lands and resources are clearly there. There are two fundamental reasons. First, the process to implement control and jurisdiction over our lands was conceived and developed by our peoples, by first nations peoples ourselves. It is a process in which we have extreme pride. We have extreme pride of ownership. It's something that's been accepted by first nation communities. And that is very significant, members of the committee.

Second, we see, collectively and individually as first nations, the benefits that arise from what we're talking about in terms of things like economic development, job creation, reduced dependency on social assistance, and the enhanced governance we now have. I'm talking about thousands and thousands of jobs. I'm talking about hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue that have been generated and put back into the economy.

I understand that you had a presentation recently from the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. I'm familiar with that. There are three issues that come to mind from that presentation: first, capacity-building; second, accountability; third, environmental management.

Capacity-building is a very significant issue. With the transfer of responsibility for land management to our first nations, our communities have continually requested help in building capacity in our communities. We need trained land managers in order to assist us in that decision-making authority. It is something I want to emphasize, because it's clearly needed. I would hope that we would have some questions in that regard.

As well, we have our resource centre. They're there to support our first nations across this country. They're there to assist not only operational but also developmental first nations and the passage of the land codes, and to help provide some of the training that is so necessary to the land managers and to the staff and to the understanding of what we're talking about. It's a very important component of what we have put together.

The second area is accountability. One of the tremendous benefits of the land management regime is the increased accountability we now have as elected leaders to our community. That is very significant. We have the role and responsibility to answer to our members. That's something the Indian Act doesn't specifically provide for. It does in the land management, in the land code. Taking on this form of self-government responds directly to the membership needs on land-related matters. It's something that we honour and respect and our communities respect.

The third area is environmental management. It is a big area. As first nations operating under the framework agreement, we all fully understand very well and accept the responsibilities we have as first nations in the environmental management of our lands. Canada must also recognize that responsibility. I am suggesting to you, members of the committee, that we must be adequately supported and funded in this area.

I mentioned earlier that yesterday we signed a historic funding agreement. There are some dollars in that funding agreement, which will start April 1, 2012, that will allow us the capability to do environmental management. But it's a start--I have to say, a “start”.

Now, we understand the impact of damages that have been caused in both the past and the present...and the future. The concern we have is about the mismanagement of land that has happened historically, and in some cases off the reserve lands. That is proven history.

I want to make it very clear here that the framework agreement creates a new relationship between our governments. I want to stress that: “new” relationship. It's a word that is commonly used and put forth, and we are here to indicate to you the importance of why we're involved. The importance cannot be underestimated. I belive the chiefs and the members who are with us here today are important evidence of that.

What we are looking at is equal footing with the provincial governments, with the municipalities, and with the Government of Canada. That's what law-making, this decision-making process, provides. We believe we are better able to work with governments to develop compatible things like environmental laws and regulations, as well as to deal with all of the other issues that surround land management.

This new relationship has importance and effect throughout this country. We are able to deal directly with business interests that bring economic development opportunities to our communities.

The people who are behind me here—the land managers, the heart and soul, the workers who deal with this—know that fully well. They process land transactions on a daily basis within the perimeters, within the law-making, that they have in their land codes. It brings benefits to each of the communities that are here, to each of the communities that are waiting and want to be available to exercise this.

We are able to respond to the business at the speed of business and not wait six months or two years for decision-making with the Department of Indian Affairs. We need the capacity and we need the opportunities. Certainly I want to make it very clear that we need your support to allow us to proceed.

A recent KPMG study, when we hired who we thought were some of the best people available in the country to ask whether what we were talking about was correct, confirmed it. Their report found that we can manage our land matters and handle land transactions better, more efficiently and at a lesser cost, than the Department of Indian Affairs people can.

We've confirmed through that KPMG study that we've had increased on-reserve businesses, many of which are owned by community members, by first nations collectively. This has contributed hundreds of millions of dollars to the economy and provided thousands of jobs. We've introduced new and different industries to our respective communities, and our chiefs and leaders are evidence of that. Should you wish, we can give you all kinds of examples.

We've benefited from enhanced entrepreneurial activity, we've experienced internal and external investment in our communities, and those investments now, I believe, are in the billions of dollars. We are overseeing the improvements in the process and seeing real, live change in our communities.

Mr. Chairman, I think you saw evidence of that when you visited my community at Westbank, and if the opportunity presents itself, I would like to encourage members of this committee to see first-hand what we're talking about.

The types of businesses that have been attracted to our communities include things like clean energy projects such as developing electricity through wind and solar power. I'm talking about megawatts. Many megawatts of power are now available from coast to coast for first nations peoples. I'm talking about commercial land development, things like shopping centres. My own community is involved in shopping centres. Now we are an invested owner--not just a lessor, but an actual owner of these shopping centres. We're in joint-venture partnerships. That's happening across this country.

We now have destination tourism enterprises like golf courses, ecotourism, and casinos, all of which have generated jobs and opportunities. I'm talking about lumber and mining development. That is something that has been untapped in the past, but it is now becoming more available.

Many of the first nations want opportunities, and they see in things like lumber and timber, things that are important in the far north of British Columbia. In those areas, it's important that they have land codes so they can manage the forestry industry. Residential housing developments, all of those things, are examples of what our communities are doing—direct employment, jobs, all of this.

One of our chiefs, Chief Darcy Bear from the Whitecap Dakota First Nation, is evidence of that. More jobs have been created in his community than ever before. He's providing jobs not only for his members, but also to other non-aboriginal community members, and that is hugely significant. There's evidence right across this country.

The process is working extremely well, and we're finding things to do better and more efficiently as we have more and more experience, and this is happening. We need your support. We have something that's referred to as amendment number five to our framework agreement, which we hope will soon be tabled in legislation, and we're asking you to support that. Those amendments came about as a direct result of the experience we've undergone over many years. We've ratified it from the first nations end. It's now up to Parliament to ratify it by passing the approval of the legislation for that amendment.

In summary, our requests are quite straightforward. We're asking you for your continued and long-lasting support for the framework agreement. We're asking you for support for the adding of new first nations signatories. We have a list of 80 right now. We can't accommodate all of those first nations. We need your help to get those communities involved. We need these amendments passed to help us become more efficient. We want to ensure that through the estimates and budget process Aboriginal Affairs fulfills the current funding agreement through the five-year cycle.

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, we've worked well. We've had our heartaches, but we've worked well with the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development to implement this process. We're appreciative of the minister and his support and of the support of past ministers. We're appreciative of the commitment of Canada in the last budget for $20 million to enhance it, but we need to see that become reality. We're waiting for that. We believe that this funding is necessary and will allow other first nations to benefit from what we're talking about here.

My colleagues here are very experienced. We look forward to the committee's questions. We're here in collective force to get the answers and make sure you understand the importance of what we're talking about.

I appreciate very much the opportunity this morning.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you for that. We appreciate the comprehensive briefing you brought forward, and will certainly have some questions.

Colleagues, I'm going to run out the time for questioning as it now stands, so we'll continue until our time is up, because we are here late--just so you're prepared for that.

Ms. Duncan has seven minutes.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

So we'll have one hour.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

That's right.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

That's regrettable.

I'd like to welcome all of you.

Chief Louie, thank you very much. Thank you to all who are here asking questions.

To the grand chiefs, the chiefs, the band men, and the land managers, welcome. It's great to see you all.

Mr. Chair, half of the committee members don't have the MOU on funding, and it's hard for us to gauge what it's providing. So I would appreciate it if that MOU could be provided to all the members of the committee.

Mrs. Wilson-Raybould, it's very nice to have you here. My friend Doug Aberley worked with you for many years. I've heard for many years of the wonderful work you're doing in your nation, so congratulations.

I want to zero in on one question, and hopefully my colleagues will have a chance to ask some questions as well, because the time is so tight.

My specific question is to Chief Louie. I congratulate all the first nations that have moved into the various steps of the process, but I'm getting the very clear message that there are limited resources and capacity to move from signing the framework agreement to even thinking about legally implementing a code, and then having the capacity. So I'm wondering if you could give us a little more information about it. I understand that some funding was promised on capacity-building. It's sounding like that is one of the big barriers to moving forward. Part of that is the front end, as I understand it.

I put this same question to the government panel that came in. When I look at the map, it's kind of stunning to see that most jurisdictions are picking up, but Alberta and Quebec have not shown an interest or implemented codes. I understand that might have something to do with the capacity to dialogue about what a code could do. Perhaps you can speak to that.

You mentioned the training for your land managers, and then developing laws for the regulation of development, environmental assessment, and so forth. I wonder if you could speak to what your challenges are in that capacity, the shortfalls, and whether or not that money is flowing to you.

11:55 a.m.

Chairman, First Nations Land Advisory Board

Chief Robert Louie

Thank you very much, Ms. Duncan.

It is a very, very important issue for us. We have met collectively across this country. We have looked at and examined the need of why it is that we're here and how we can become successful. One of the things we come back to is we need to train people to help us move the communities forward.

What is unfortunate, I think we've experienced, is that we've had to find our own internal funds, for the most part. We've been supported at a very minimal amount of dollars throughout, since 1996, when we started. Legislation was passed in 1999. The first land codes were implemented at the turn of the millennium. On the stroke of midnight, January 1, 2000, we had three communities become operational. Now, for those communities that were there and those communities that are now involved, little money has been provided. It's something that's continually being overlooked. We've done our studies. We've done our homework. We know that there is that need.

We’ve provided, we believe, some of the best opportunities for training. We've put together curriculums. We've got online projects that are on hold. We have not been able to fully implement those.

I need to stress that—it’s so important—we need governmental assistance. We appreciate what we have, don't get me wrong. But it's something that sometimes government overlooks. It is a necessary fact. We need that to help train our peoples to take on their roles and responsibilities. Quite frankly, with many first nations in Canada, if training dollars could be put forward, I think we would have an even higher list of first nations say they want to be involved. That's just a matter of fact.

My colleagues certainly have been working on this issue with me and collectively with our land managers. We know the direct needs that are relevant to that. It's an oversight, we believe, and it's something that hasn't been properly addressed. It needs to be addressed. We don't have those dollars. It is necessary.

Noon

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thank you.

I'll turn it over to Mr. Genest-Jourdain to use the rest of my time.

Noon

NDP

Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC

Chief Louie, I'm going to speak in French.

You had better put on your headset.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

There is simultaneous translation. The headsets are probably curled up there for you. But you may have to adjust the dial, as well, to find where the French translation would be.

Maybe, Ms. Duncan, if you have a question, in the interim...?

Noon

NDP

Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC

Chief Louie, is—

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Let's hold for a minute. I've stalled the time.

Let's just double-check the translation. Let's attempt it, Mr. Genest-Jourdain.

Noon

NDP

Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC

Does the implementation of the land codes as enacted by the communities apply simply to the reserve lands or does it also apply to the ancestral lands claimed by the communities?

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

I ask the translators just to speak in English on the French channel, just so that we can ensure that it's coming through.

That's fine. It took me about four years of being an elected member of Parliament to figure out this system.

Noon

Chairman, First Nations Land Advisory Board

Chief Robert Louie

I'm technically challenged, I'm afraid to say. This is evidence of it, obviously.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Have we got the translation coming through?

Okay. Good. I think you've got it.

Noon

Chairman, First Nations Land Advisory Board

Noon

NDP

Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC

Are we getting through? Chief Louie, can you hear me now?

Noon

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Maybe his colleagues could hear it and relay the question to him. This is crazy.

Noon

Chairman, First Nations Land Advisory Board

Chief Robert Louie

I think I now have it. It's channel 4.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Okay. We'll accommodate that in the time.

Go ahead.

Noon

NDP

Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC

I was wondering whether the application of land codes as enacted by the communities is limited only to the reserve lands or if it also applies to the ancestral lands claimed by the communities. It's a broad question.

Noon

Chairman, First Nations Land Advisory Board

Chief Robert Louie

Thank you very much. I think I understand your question.

You asked about the application of land codes, not just to the lands, but to the traditional lands. The way our law-making has developed is that we have law-making over our lands that might be termed as “reserve lands” with definitive boundaries. We do not at this point have the jurisdiction to exercise land management authorities beyond the reserve boundaries, outside, in our traditional lands. So it is capsulated strictly to the reserve itself.

Noon

NDP

Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC

What is the diameter in kilometres of the reserve you are from, for example?

Noon

Chairman, First Nations Land Advisory Board

Chief Robert Louie

Thank you.

For my community, Westbank, I don't know the square kilometres. I can give you an estimate, though, in acreage--my “old school” comes to light. We have close to 6,000 acres of land in total, and that's just my community, at Westbank First Nation.