Evidence of meeting #37 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paula Isaak  Assistant Deputy Minister, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Diane Lafleur  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Paul Thoppil  Chief Financial Officer, Chief Financial Officer Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Welcome, everyone. This is the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs. We're meeting today on unceded Algonquin territory, for which we are very grateful.

Welcome to all of those who are here to observe as guests today.

We are meeting pursuant to Standing Order 81(5), supplementary estimates (B), 2016-2017, votes 1b, 5b, and 10b under Indian Affairs and Northern Development, referred to the committee on Thursday, November 3, 2016.

We will be hearing today from the Honourable Carolyn Bennett, Minister of Indigenous and Northern Affairs, who has with her officials from the department, from INAC. We have Paula Isaak, assistant deputy minister, education and social development programs; Diane Lafleur, associate deputy minister; and Paul Thoppil, chief financial officer. Welcome all.

I am happy to turn the floor over to you for 10 minutes. At which time, we'll move into questions. We do have this panel for the full two hours, and we will go as long as we feel is needed today in that time frame.

With that, Minister Bennett, I am happy to give the floor to you.

3:30 p.m.

Toronto—St. Paul's Ontario

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett LiberalMinister of Indigenous and Northern Affairs

I'm just checking, Mr. Chair, was the change in the date the reason this room isn't televised?

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

We had four committees all wanting to televise today and all with ministers. I think our record of televising every committee put us at the bottom of the list for televising today.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

Obviously, this is something that needs to be taken to the Liaison Committee, because there is nothing more important than Canadians understanding what's going on. I would really welcome some intervention at the parliamentary level, because this is about reconciliation. It's about people understanding what's happening, and it's a real education for all Canadians.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Minister, if I understand you, the idea that we should be able to televise—

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

Or at least webcast.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Or at least webcast...yes.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

I know that the audio will be broadcast, but I do think that members have worked hard, and this is really important.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Thank you for that. It's something we've talked about amongst ourselves and that we're hoping to bring some action to. Thank you for that.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

You have to put up with the fact.... I chaired the subcommittee on persons with disabilities for five years. People with disabilities really cared about that committee, and it never got televised. I think there is a lot of work we need to do to make Parliament more open, if we can. Thank you.

It's a pleasure to be back here acknowledging that we're gathered on unceded Algonquin territory, and as you've said, Mr. Chair, to be joined here by the associate deputy minister—Diane, you were here once before—the chief financial officer, Paul Thoppil, and the ADM, education and social development and partnerships, Paula Isaak.

I wanted to begin by welcoming the new critic, Romeo Saganash, in his role as

NDP spokesperson for intergovernmental indigenous affairs.

I also want to thank the committee for the pre-work you're doing on S-3, and I think I'm back next week doing that, but also for your ongoing work on suicide.

I just wanted to say that we're going to try to organize a screening of Survivors Rowe. The link with child abuse, anger, shame, drugs, alcohol, and violent suicide is very linear. I hope that we can make sure that your report is as robust as it can be on those difficult things.

I am here today to discuss the supplementary estimates (B) for Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada.

As I said, the last time I appeared, I hope you understand that we understand that the current estimates process is archaic and unclear, and that we're looking forward to the needed reforms coming from the President of the Treasury Board for this broken system.

We have provided a deck of slides to the committee that outlines the initiatives found in the supplementary estimates. We hope that this makes a little bit clearer the request being made of Parliament. We want to begin by reiterating that the government is committed to lifting the 2% cap.

As I have said before, the 2% cap has been lifted.

The budget took into account the need for growth and cost drivers well in excess of 2%. As you know, the budget 2016 investments mean that within four years, total funding for indigenous programs will be 22% above the level of funding that would have been provided under the previous cap of 2%.

Our government is also committed to jointly designing a new fiscal relationship that will move to a needs-based approach and give first nation communities sufficient, predictable, and sustained funding to ensure their overall well-being.

Last summer, I signed a memorandum of understanding with the Assembly of First Nations to move forward with that process.

Last week, I was able to meet with the new fiscal relations committee at the AFN, for the second time, to keep going on what that new relationship would look like, and I promised Madam McLeod that it will include transparency and accountability, as they are very keen to deal with that in the new fiscal relationship.

We've also engaged the Métis nation in our process to establish permanent funding for the Métis National Council and its governing members.

As you can see, supplementary estimates (B) reflect a net increase of $644.3 million in appropriations from my department. That brings the total appropriations for INAC for 2016-17 to $9.4 billion.

The majority of the spending in supplementary estimates (B) represents the budget 2016 items. In the case of the items appearing in these estimates, INAC was able to internally cash-manage to ensure that we are already delivering on commitments in many important areas.

First Nations children deserve the best start in life. This begins with properly funded education.

This year, our government has already put funding in place for 130 school-related infrastructure projects, and budget 2016 is also providing $275 million over five years to support language and culture initiatives for youth.

The $245.8 million of funding sought by these supplementary estimates will fund additional investments in first nations elementary and secondary education. The money will both address immediate needs and pressures and aid long-term transformation. We anticipate that nearly 110,000 students will directly benefit from these investments. But there's no question and I want to stress that we know this is just a start.

As we mentioned, we're working to renew the relationship with first nations and are actively engaging with them to reform first nations primary and secondary education.

We'll talk a bit more about the money that was dedicated to initiate those reforms later on.

I would now like to turn to a priority issue, which is the prevention of family violence.

We have launched a truly national, independent inquiry in to the ongoing tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls.

As we've said, we are also not waiting for the results of the commission. We have taken immediate action this year on the root causes, with investments in women's shelters, housing, education, and child welfare.

The supplementary estimates (B) are requesting $4.8 million in funding to better support, through the family violence program, the existing network of 41 shelters for victims of family violence. This represents the first year of budget 2016 funding, which is $33.6 million over five years and $8.3 million ongoing. We are also investing $10.4 million over the next three years to support the renovation of existing shelters and the construction of five new shelters in first nations communities.

As you know, the other urgent area of need is child welfare.

We recognize that first nations require funds to expand prevention programming and provide additional front-line capacity. The goal is fewer children in care and fewer children who enter the system.

I look forward to discussing the issues with you further during your questions, as well as the areas in which the dollars seem not to have rolled out and will roll forward into next year, in both education reform and in the claims process.

I would now like to turn the committee's attention to another significant step in Canada's journey of reconciliation with indigenous peoples.

In May this year, the government reached an agreement to settle the Newfoundland day scholars class action lawsuit. This settlement includes direct compensation to survivors, as well as healing and commemoration activities. To support this, these estimates request $53 million in funding for that particular settlement.

Another significant part of my department's mandate concerns the north, and specifically for our purposes here, funding for northern and Inuit housing investments in Nunavik, Nunatsiavut, and the lnuvialuit settlement regions.

I have been in way too many homes, as you have as well, both on reserve and in Inuit and northern communities, where the conditions are truly upsetting and totally unacceptable. These estimates include $25.5 million to address immediate long-standing needs in these three Inuit regions. Over the two years, budget 2016 is providing $177.7 million in northern housing investments. Reducing overcrowding and repairing homes will directly contribute to improved health and life outcomes in northern communities.

The supplementary estimates (B) contains many other important investments as well, including $58 million in funding to continue fulfilling Canada's obligation under the Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement, and $72 million in funding for the specific claims settlements and Specific Claims Tribunal awards.

Ultimately, this funding will contribute to a more prosperous Canada, and will contribute to closing social and economic gaps for first nations, Inuit, Métis, and northerners.

I very much look forward to taking your questions today.

Meegwetch.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Thank you very much, Minister Bennett.

We're going to go right into questions.

This is a seven-minute round of questions, and the first question comes from Mike Bossio.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you so much, Minister, for being here again. You have made yourself accessible a number of times, and we really appreciate your coming in to answer our questions.

My first question is that these estimates contain $71 million for child and family services this year. What is that funding for?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

There had been pilot projects in a number of provinces on enhanced prevention dollars, how we could get money to agencies that would then prevent those children from coming into care. Those were successful, but it was uneven and therefore discriminatory, because some provinces were getting the money and others were not.

In that money, we have been able to now fund British Columbia, the Yukon, Ontario, New Brunswick, and Newfoundland. We have also added some money to fund all of the agencies, separate from the $71 million, to get agencies to develop a plan to have less kids in care, as well as to make sure that the cultural competences are there. That is such a huge goal, in being able to allow children to stay in touch with their culture and language, and to secure the personal cultural identity that we know is very much responsible for better health, education, and economic outcomes.

That's the bulk of the money. Then, there is, as you know, other money for Jordan's principle that's come as well.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

That leads into my next question.

You're clearly very focused on reforming the child welfare system. Can you explain why?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

As I think Grand Chief Ed John said just last week, the system has to change. It's broken. We have more kids in care than at the height of the residential schools. As we learned from the B.C. child advocate, children are being abused in the situation. Children become abusers and then they get moved from family to family. This is a broken system.

We want to develop a system where communities get money such that they can actually identify the families at risk and are able to put in interventions before the child comes into the system. We want the agencies to do a better job, but we also are hearing, time and time again, that the kinds of planning models that Cindy Blackstock has developed in Touchstones of Hope really work in terms of getting all communities together to make decisions—i.e., what are we going to do about this problem of too many children being apprehended and being sent out of the community, where they do badly?

So many people have said to us...including Ed John, who said it would be a mistake to read his report simply as a demand to get more money and control of child welfare for first nations. This has to be a real and significant change. Unfortunately, we're also hearing stories of certain provinces that are clawing back the money that's been given. We actually need to reform a system that is accountable for the results.

When you listen to the kids in care, it just breaks your heart. These are kids who've been separated from their siblings, just like with residential schools. These are kids who have been put in very religious homes, where they're told that their indigenous ways are not right. Some kids have obviously been put at huge risk when coming out as gay or lesbian, or having suicidal ideation, where the response is that you can't kill yourself because you'll go to hell.

This is awful. That's why we're trying, and why I point to Cynthia Wesley-Esquimaux, who is out and talking to communities, talking to provinces and territories. We have a system right now where we pay, as the federal government, for the provinces and territories to deliver the system, and kids aren't doing well. I want to be accountable for the results.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

This is moving more towards a system of long-term, stable funding that's community-driven, in essence.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

Yes. It will be a blend of experts, front-line workers, the kinds of people who really know what's happening on the ground, but we're developing a summit for when the provincial ministers will meet, and we want them to hear from the kids first. You cannot reform the system without listening to the young people who have been involved in the system or who have aged out of the system.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

What do you think the appropriate funding levels should be for child and family services?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

That's exactly what we have to find out. That's why we're going into each of the communities and asking what their needs are. Needs-based funding means you have to ask questions. What are the needs? What would it take to wrap services around a family or around a community, to look after these children who are perceived at risk, without engaging the system? Then what money do the agencies need to have well-trained people who are attitudinally correct about the goal to have fewer kids in care?

We also are very worried in that poverty should not be interpreted as neglect. We have to deal with poverty as an issue that is quite separate from neglect. If there's no food in the fridge, you get some food in the fridge, and you wrap those services around that family. Don't call it neglect and then go and apprehend the child.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you, Minister.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

The next question is from Cathy McLeod, please.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Thank you, Chair. Could you interrupt me when I have one minute left, please?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Sure.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Thanks.

Thank you, Minister. Of course I always appreciate your coming to committee. You've been very generous with your time in the year that I've been on this committee. I do want to thank you for that.

I'll start with the education piece, because I think the education piece is very important. Just quickly, you identified helping 110,000 students directly. From the last numbers I looked at, there were about 120,000 students, of which 60% or 63% were in band-run schools. Is that accurate?

Some of my questions will be technical, so I know you might need to refer to your officials.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

Paula, do you want to just say what the percentage is?