Evidence of meeting #86 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was treaties.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:35 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
Thank you, Minister.
With your permission, Mr. Chair, I will reply in French.
Ms. Gill, we have a lively relationship with our indigenous partners. As for the first step with our Métis partners, we have an agreement and we're going to negotiate.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC
I have 10 seconds left and I think you can answer with a simple yes or no: are the rights and titles of other first nations or Métis nations likely to be affected if Bill C‑53 is passed?
4:35 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
They're not likely to be any time soon.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
4:35 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
The point is that there are conditions. If a treaty is eventually amended so that it affects rights, for example jurisdiction over land...
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
4:35 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
We can't, unfortunately...
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC
Can we sum up the answer by saying that, yes, there is a possibility? Is there no possibility or is there a possibility?
4:35 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
I...
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
Madame Gill, I'll ask you to allow the witness to respond.
We are out of time, so I'll ask for a very brief response.
4:35 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
This is not for the territory that the community of Kebaowek might occupy, but, should a Métis group be granted jurisdiction over certain lands and should there be a potential overlap, then that would be a possibility. In that case, there would be consultation and possible adaptations.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
Thank you.
I should have mentioned this during my introduction comments. I'd like to remind everybody—this was raised in the House today—that we have two official languages in Canada, and you are encouraged to use whatever one is your language of choice. That's why we have our excellent interpreters. Converse in either language. I just want to make that clear.
We're now going to Ms. Idlout, who has two and a half minutes in this round.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU
Qujannamiik.
To go back to the concerns raised by first nations, especially in Ontario, that have had treaties for generations, they feel they have not had an opportunity to be heard by this government.
How does this government plan to alleviate the concerns of first nations in Ontario regarding the Métis Nation of Ontario?
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
I have met with the Chiefs of Ontario. I spoke at their AGM last week. I've met with a number of chiefs individually. I have met chiefs in smaller groups. I have listened to them intently in terms of their concerns. The concerns that were laid out are not what are in the bill.
The assurance I can give them today, and the assurance I can give you, Lori, is that Bill C-53 is essentially a recognition of the governance of the Métis of Ontario. It does not in any way deal with harvesting rights. It does not deal with land rights. The treaties contemplated by Bill C-53, again, do not contemplate either land or harvesting rights.
I don't know how else to give that assurance. It is in the language in the text—
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU
When you met with them, did they respond to you that they felt reassured?
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
They are frustrated, and I recognize the frustration. What we're trying to do here is to ensure that the Métis nations, the three of them in question, who have long not been recognized, are recognized through a self-governance process. That is what we're trying to do. We're not trying to do anything beyond that.
It's a basic principle of the UN declaration, as well as....
I think that if any people—
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
There are times when we can.... We need to do more work. Let me put it that way.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
Thank you. We're out of time.
In this round, there are two five-minute question periods left, and I'm going to start with Mr. Schmale.
When you're ready, the floor is yours.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Thank you very much, Chair. I appreciate the additional opportunity to chat with the minister.
Minister, I think Mr. McLeod brought it up too. The clarity around membership is something that has come up a few times in the conversation about this bill and what comes next.
You spoke about it a little bit, but I want to drill down to potentially ease some of the concerns of some of these groups around membership. What strategy is being put in place to ensure that the membership holds up to any potential scrutiny?
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
The way the membership is undertaken is that there's an application process. They have to meet the Powley test in terms of ensuring that the principles as outlined in Powley are satisfied. Then what the registrar in each of the provinces will do is use a third party validation process to make sure that those who were admitted as members are validated in accordance to the Powley decision.
The question, maybe, Jamie, that I'm trying to answer.... Let me frame that, because there is a difference between how membership is defined under the Indian Act and how it's happening with the Métis. There is a discrepancy there that I think we need to acknowledge, and it's a discrepancy that requires us to work harder to ensure that we continue to move away from the Indian Act.
The challenge, as you're aware, is that there is a cut-off. There's a second-generation cut-off, and we've had to expand that a number of times, but I think ultimately the issue of self-determination over membership goes particularly to first nations—
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
I appreciate that.
As you know, and as everyone in this room knows, first nations don't get to decide their membership. As you mentioned, it's under the Indian Act, but there's a little more flexibility for the Métis. Again, I'm looking for those safeguards in place. I know we have Powley and other guidelines that are followed, but we've heard from Métis organizations and we heard from the chiefs and many other first nations that are looking for solid guardrails, if you will, for lack of a better word, about the membership.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
Yes, and this is where the review process is important. There is a review process and there is also a cross-checking with the registrar in terms of the Indian Act to make sure that there's no duplication. Ultimately, if somebody meets all those requirements, then they're admitted as members.
I think the question that we need to address in the future, and with urgency, is the issue of broader issues of definitions under the act that preclude some people from being members of certain communities. I think that's work that we still need to do. It is important, and I acknowledge it, and I think it's something that we need to....
We can't have that cloud the conversation here. The mistakes of the past we cannot repeat in modern legislation where we are trying to avoid and learn from our past mistakes. I think that's really what we're trying to do with Bill C-53.