Evidence of meeting #12 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was media.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Okay.
We have a report here that in October 2009 Venezuela's interior and justice minister, Tarek El Aissami, stated that police committed approximately 15% to 20% of the country's crimes, including the most violent crimes. Here's a declaration by a minister of the government saying that one in five crimes, even the most violent crimes, are being committed by the police.
Certainly this isn't misinformation. It's coming from the Government of Venezuela. Do you recognize that as a concern?
2 p.m.
Bolivarian Circle Louis Riel / Hands Off Venezuela
Of course. This is why there is a new police law and why there is a new national police force. A lot of the police were divided. You had mayors, and in one city, for example, the city of Caracas, there would be five or six mayors, and each mayor would have his own police force. These police forces were basically their own little armies. Many of the mayors were against the government, and some were for the government. So there was a lot of conflict there.
Yes, the minister is absolutely right. This is why the government then passed a law that made the police force a modern police force, and they nationalized it. There's now one academy where the police have to go, and they have to learn about community policing. They have to learn about human rights.
This is going to take some time. You don't throw out all your policemen at once and get new policemen.
2 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Fair enough.
I hear you acknowledging that there is a concern when it comes to the violence and corruption within the police force.
2 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
You mentioned the inability of human rights organizations to accurately describe what's going on. I guess there could perhaps be incidents of that, but to suggest that every human rights organization that's monitoring Venezuela is somehow doing an incomplete job or is twisting the truth...
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Okay, then there must be some truth, because we hear from human rights organizations that say that there are things like unlawful killings, harsh prison conditions, arbitrary arrests and detention, a politicized judicial system--we've talked about that--and attacks on the independence of the media. There must be some truth to it if so many of these organizations are saying the same things.
I'm very pleased that you're here to provide your perspective, but I'm wondering if you would acknowledge that there are some human rights concerns in Venezuela. Or do you firmly believe that there are no concerns about human rights in Venezuela?
2:05 p.m.
Bolivarian Circle Louis Riel / Hands Off Venezuela
Do you want me to respond?
2:05 p.m.
Bolivarian Circle Louis Riel / Hands Off Venezuela
I think there are. There are definitely human rights concerns, but you have to look at Venezuela in the entire regional context. When you compare Venezuela and the vast improvements since the election of the Chávez government relative to the previous governments, which killed 3,000 people at Caracazo, where in the barrios people were afraid of the police or anything like this, there have been significant improvements. And I think you also have to compare Venezuela with Colombia. You have to compare Venezuela with the coup regime in Honduras. That is very important.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
That will be fine. Thank you, Chair.
What I hear you saying then is yes, there are human rights problems, but in comparison to the past or to the region, they're acceptable?
2:05 p.m.
Société Bolivarienne du Québec / Hands Off Venezuela
They are getting better.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
2:05 p.m.
Bolivarian Circle Louis Riel / Hands Off Venezuela
They are never acceptable.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Okay, but you do then admit that taken in isolation—
2:05 p.m.
Bolivarian Circle Louis Riel / Hands Off Venezuela
I think every country has human rights problems.
2:05 p.m.
Bolivarian Circle Louis Riel / Hands Off Venezuela
Even Canada has human rights problems.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Would you say that Canada has human rights problems on a comparable basis?
2:05 p.m.
Société Bolivarienne du Québec / Hands Off Venezuela
May I give an example? It will be short but relevant--
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
I think this ends the questions we can ask. Now what I'm going to suggest is that we have Madame Vaudry and then Dr. Victor give their comments, and that will complete this.
Madame Vaudry, s'il vous plaît.
2:05 p.m.
Société Bolivarienne du Québec / Hands Off Venezuela
I would like to give a short answer. You asked for a comparison with Canada's role. You probably know CSIS, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. It is harassing social movements. I do not know what is going on with other groups, but those who support the Bolivarian revolution in Venezuela, my friends, are harassed in their home, they are threatened of expulsion if they do not cooperate, or they are told their children could have problems. I have friends who are harassed by the Canadians secret service. Is that normal?
I am not suggesting the Quebec people or the Canadian people should rise up and undertake a coup. I am an activist for the Bolivarian revolution, and I want to publicize what is happening over there and demystify, and promote a perspective that is different from the one which prevails in mass media here, in Canada.
What the secret service is doing in Canada should never take place here.
2:05 p.m.
Bolivarian Circle Louis Riel / Hands Off Venezuela
I just want to make four last points. One, the Venezuelan government has not gone to war since 1811 to 1825, when they went to war to get independence. It's a military and a government that are quite proud of that fact. That is why now the army is being used for positive things, to help the people.
Second, when people come to you and say there have been killings in Venezuela, I beg of you to find out what the source is and ask who was killed and where is this body and where are the people who are mourning this person who was killed. Because this accusation I have seen over and over again, and I ask where these dead people are. Find out your sources. I'm not saying they are all a mistake or they're all lies, but I beg of you to look at who the sources are of the information you are getting.
The third thing is those who call President Chávez a dictatorship are calling President Jimmy Carter of the United States a liar and a scoundrel because he and his Carter Center, along with 300 international observers, have gone to observe every one of the elections in the last eleven years. These have been the most internationally observed elections in the world, so whoever says that he has been elected in bad elections is calling President Carter a liar.
The last thing I want to show you is this. This is where they sell rice. That one was sugar. They sell beans, and all of these in the government subsidized food thing, and you don't see the face of President Chávez here or his party or anything to do with the government. These are articles of the Constitution, and they are part of a program of popular education to teach the people they have rights that they can demand of the government. This is the right to education. This is the right to culture. Now the culture of black people, the previous slaves, is accepted in the different ethnic groups. This is the population being taught what their own rights are, and I don't know another brutal dictatorship that does this.
I can leave these for you, if you like. And again, I beg of you, sirs, please—
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Thank you.
I apologize for interrupting this, but the members have to get back in the next three minutes to the House of Commons in a different building to attend question period, which starts at 2:15.
I want to thank the witnesses for being here.
I'll just state for the record that what was shown was two plastic bags, which I believe had rice in them.