Evidence of meeting #10 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Don Hutchinson  Vice-President and General Legal Counsel, Religious Liberty Commission, Evangelical Fellowship of Canada

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

It is November 24, 2011 today and this is the 10th hearing of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Those of you who have items in front of you will see that we were going to deal in camera with committee business first. That would have involved kicking our witnesses and all the other people who have come to see us out of the room, doing our committee business, and then inviting them back in. It would also require more than the number of people we have here. We can have three members present for the purpose of receiving testimony, but doing any business requires more.

So I'm going to reverse the order. We'll do the committee business later on, when we have a full complement. We will start with witness testimony.

We have as our guest today Don Hutchinson, who is the general legal counsel and also vice-president of the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada.

We're grateful to have you here with us today. We are in a smaller room than we were in last time. That's not a sign that we esteem your testimony any less; it's a sign of the fact that our returning forces from Libya are being recognized in our committee room upstairs. I think we all recognize that as a pretty important event.

We are, of course, continuing our study of the persecution of the Christian minorities in Iraq and Iran and the Copt community in Egypt.

Mr. Hutchinson, I invite you to begin your testimony whenever you see fit.

1:05 p.m.

Don Hutchinson Vice-President and General Legal Counsel, Religious Liberty Commission, Evangelical Fellowship of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and the committee for the invitation to inform your deliberations.

Although I am vice-president and general legal counsel with the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada, as the chair has noted, I'm appearing today in my capacity as chair of the EFC's religious liberty commission.

I will avoid reviewing too much history and information contained in media reports and focus on the current position of Christians on the ground in Egypt, Iraq, and Iran.

When asked last Friday to appear, we set into action the international network that would provide as current information as possible to the committee. I think it makes sense that I would first explain that network to you, and then talk about the countries specifically.

The EFC has 39 denominational affiliates. Anglican, Baptist, Mennonite, Pentecostal, Vineyard, and Wesleyan traditions, including the Salvation Army, are among them. The EFC also has over 100 organizational affiliates, including those that engage in support and advocacy on behalf of persecuted Christians.

The EFC is also one of 128 national alliances in the World Evangelical Alliance, which, along with the Roman Catholic Church and the World Council of Churches, is recognized as one of the primary representative bodies of Christians in the world.

The EFC's religious liberty commission, which I will refer to as the RLC, is composed of individuals and representatives of organizations engaged with the persecuted church. They select their own chair. The RLC is in a relationship with the World Evangelical Alliance's religious liberty commission, which also relates to Advocates International, an association of Christian lawyers on the ground in over 100 countries, and several other WEA partners. We are also networked into the Religious Liberty Partnership, which is generally accepted as the largest global partnership of individuals and organizations engaging with and within the persecuted church.

First, I'll comment on Egypt.

The RLC produced a report on Egypt in June 2009, updated by a schedule issued in February 2010. I have a copy of the document here and will be forwarding it electronically to the clerk. That document includes recommendations to the Government of Canada.

The committee heard comment on Tuesday about the October 9 massacre at Maspero, when 27 Christians were killed and over 300 injured. This has created a new level of fear of the military for Copts and other Egyptian Christians.

The committee also heard about the brazen murder of 17-year-old Copt Ayman Nabil Labib on October 16 after he refused his teacher's order to cover his traditional Coptic-cross wrist tattoo and remove another visible cross he was wearing. Ayman was beaten to death in the classroom.

The destruction of church buildings continues in Egypt, with congregations forbidden from conducting repairs or rebuilding without approval from local Muslim councils or the national government. I will say that the army has rebuilt two churches that were damaged or destroyed in Cairo earlier this year.

Brian Stiller, the former president of the EFC and now global ambassador for the EFC and the World Evangelical Alliance, is on the ground in Egypt, and will be there for another two weeks. Brian and others have reported on the response to this anti-Christian violence.

On November 11, nine months to the day after former President Hosni Mubarak left office, Christians gathered for worship. Copts, Catholics, Evangelicals, and other Protestants stood side by side in a gathering of over 70,000 people at the Cave Church, also know as St. Simon Church, in Cairo to praise and worship Jesus, while millions around the world joined via the Internet. I have photographs of that event, which I’m happy to circulate for you to look at.

This was the largest gathering of Christians in the modern history of Egypt. The prayer gathering started at 6 p.m. and continued until six the next morning. The leaders of the churches led in collective prayers for the nation, for the healing of their land, for repentance from harmful acts they might have engaged in, and forgiveness for acts committed against them.

Scenes of Christians and Muslims praying together and protecting one another in Tahrir Square at the beginning of this year have unfortunately been replaced by restricted freedom. The Christians took a huge risk by gathering so openly and publicly in such a large way. Certainly they were in what's called “Garbage City”, away from the centre of Cairo.

The restrictions have been occasioned by both military and Islamic extremists, who are excluding Christians and moderate Muslims from the political program. This situation has not been helped by continual reminders that Pope Shenouda III supported President Mubarak during the January uprising, essentially preferring the devil he knew to the one he did not.

The Muslim Brotherhood is proposing through its political networks to run candidates for over 85% of the 498 parliamentary seats despite an earlier commitment to run for not more than 40%. The military in turn is proposing to allow only 20% of the new parliamentary seats to be available in the election that begins next week. This parliament will shape the new constitution of Egypt.

A prominent Christian leader reports--and I won't be sharing names today--that:

There has been a distinct feeling by all Christians that they are a “minority” and should be more restricted in their rights as this is a Muslim nation.

He also notes:

Pressure by foreign governments to support Christians in Egypt often backfire and make proof to their Muslim detractors that they are a “foreign” element in Egypt, or worse, agents of foreign interests. So much better for let Egyptians in Egypt make their own claims and demands. There are some rare situations when foreign intervention helps, and in those cases we can let you know.

He concludes by encouraging appeals for the general safety of all Egyptians, noting:

It's the safety of the country which is more important--in its (Egypt's) peace and security Christians will find their peace and security,

Another prominent Christian leader from Cairo notes that:

...as the conflict between the demonstrators and the Egyptian army escalated and became extremely violent, we opened the church building to be used as a clinic to treat the wounded.

It is a confusing situation for us, to be honest. We are hoping for a peaceful election process, and yet are keenly aware that the new political parties are not ready for such a huge step and are unsure what the results will be. There is a general sense of frustration in many people, as we aren't seeing any of the promised changes taking place in the government or in civilian affairs. There is still so much aggression and abuse from the police towards the people demonstrating and now from the army as well. This all reminds us that we still need to continue to pray fervently.

Because the elections are coming up very soon, some of the more radical Islamic parties made a “power show” last Friday, trying to show the public their influence and their intent to impose their opinions on the new constitution.

We are also reminded that the relatively moderate Muslim nature of Egypt, attendant with its related human rights weaknesses, has been geopolitically important. In the election that begins next week, the rules on identity documents for voting will disqualify or discourage many Christians from going to the polls. The only Arabic-language Christian newspaper ever to legally publish in modern Egypt continues to publish, and the Arabic-language Christian Internet station continues to broadcast. However, both are at risk.

I close this section with the following from another prominent Christian leader in Egypt. He writes:

Thank you for sharing our difficult time.

We are passing through a dark tunnel of violence, feeling grieve of death and injustice. The light of forgiveness is shining with a painful love. Trying to bring forgiveness and justice together is a big struggle, but we are committed to the love that never fails.

We are hardly pressed on every side, yet not crushed. We are perplexed but not lost, persecuted but not forsaken, struck down but not destroyed. We do not lose heart and continue to work for justice to be fulfilled. We continue to love and declare forgiveness so the peace of God will overshadow all hearts. We continue to work on the healing and support of the innocent victims. And we continue to pray for the victims, for the offenders and for a better future.

Thank you all for your love, care, words and actions to bring justice and forgiveness together.

My comments on Iraq and Iran will be briefer, as it's more difficult to get into those countries for current comments off the ground on short notice.

The RLC also produced a report on Iraq in March 2010. I will forward that electronically to the clerk. That document includes recommendations to the Government of Canada. We are greatly encouraged by certain of the recommendations made at that time, which have been favourably received by the Government of Canada. The general lack of security for Christians results in continuing flight, either within or from the country.

In September 2011 a visit by a Canadian NGO accompanied by a member of Parliament and a senator took place. Back-channel communications came to us following that visit, and we have provided assurance that this was not a visit from a participant with the World Evangelical Alliance or the Religious Liberty Partnership, or, to our knowledge, an official delegation of the Government of Canada.

Moving on to Iran, we have not prepared a recent report on Iran. We note the number who remain in prison. Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani remains imprisoned and on death row, enduring physical and psychological torture. He's charged with apostasy because he had a Muslim heritage, not because he ever practised Islam prior to becoming a Christian. He's in solitary confinement and is forced daily to read Muslim anti-Christian literature while being supervised doing so. He has been beaten. He's allowed some phone calls but they're being listened to, so the conversations are limited. It is anticipated that his conviction on a new set of charges will be handed down by the Iranian court sometime just before the celebration of Christmas.

We also anticipate that with the Christmas celebrations, both Orthodox and traditional, coming in December and January, another wave of Christian arrests will take place. Last year over 120 were arrested during this time, one of whom, Farshid Fathi, has been held in the notorious Evin prison in Tehran since December 26, 2010. The 32-year-old is married with two young children.

We are reminded that in any conflict there are children. In addition to the issues of persecution that confront children raised of Christian-documented parents, there are additional risks and pressures for children of Muslim-background converts to Christianity who are being raised as Christians but are required to maintain Muslim expression and practices in their public lives.

In Iran, different from Egypt, it is believed that pressure from the international community is the key to Christians being released from prison and experiencing some measure of religious freedom.

As a side note, I observed that the report of this committee in regard to Sri Lanka has not been completed. Just this week I received communication from the National Christian Evangelical Alliance of Sri Lanka, whose executive director is also the chair of the World Evangelical Alliance religious liberty commission, about the situation in Sri Lanka, with the government's falling and elections now scheduled for December. I will also forward that electronically to the clerk.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you very much.

Before we move to anything else, I'll just mention, Mr. Hutchinson, that the document you've submitted is in English only. I'm not allowed to circulate it under our rules, but the clerk will ensure that it is translated and then distributed. We have very efficient translators, so that should happen quite quickly.

Given the fact that we have 40 minutes left and we need a little time for committee business, I suggest we have six-minutes rounds. We will begin with Mr. Hiebert.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Hutchinson, for being here today. I appreciate your taking the time to inform us about what's been happening.

There are a couple of pieces of information that you shared that were new to me, and I was wondering if you could elaborate on them to whatever degree you can.

You mentioned, in regard to the churches that were destroyed earlier this year, that the army had returned to rebuild those churches. Is that correct?

1:20 p.m.

Vice-President and General Legal Counsel, Religious Liberty Commission, Evangelical Fellowship of Canada

Don Hutchinson

There are two churches that were destroyed in Cairo that have been rebuilt by the army. However, the Church of St. George in Merinab in Aswan province, which was destroyed by a mob of just over 1,000 people following completion of government-approved renovations, has not been rebuilt. The military government has ordered that local Muslim councils will have to give their approval in addition to that of the national government prior to rebuilding any churches that are damaged or destroyed. They've also made a request that the Muslim community identified as engaging in taking down the buildings be asked to make reparation. In the case of the St. George church, there's been an announcement made by a Sufi that the Muslim community would take action to restore it, but that announcement was made approximately two months ago and no action has taken place.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

When was the church damaged?

1:20 p.m.

Vice-President and General Legal Counsel, Religious Liberty Commission, Evangelical Fellowship of Canada

Don Hutchinson

That was destroyed in September.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

So the announcement came shortly after it was destroyed.

1:20 p.m.

Vice-President and General Legal Counsel, Religious Liberty Commission, Evangelical Fellowship of Canada

Don Hutchinson

Very shortly after, a representative from the military government attended in the province and was standing beside a Sufi when he made the announcement. Then the military left. Nothing has taken place since then.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Also, you talked about this gathering of 70,000. Where was that located?

1:20 p.m.

Vice-President and General Legal Counsel, Religious Liberty Commission, Evangelical Fellowship of Canada

Don Hutchinson

That was in the Cave Church in Garbage City in Cairo. It's a suburb of Cairo. The Cave Church is literally a cave hollowed out of the rock and from the main platform, or the elevated portion of the church building, there's no back wall and it just proceeds up a hill. That was a remarkable gathering. Brian Stiller, in a video report that was posted just yesterday, I believe, also includes some of the video footage from the event that was broadcast over the Internet.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

When did that happen?

1:20 p.m.

Vice-President and General Legal Counsel, Religious Liberty Commission, Evangelical Fellowship of Canada

Don Hutchinson

That took place on November 11 of this year.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Okay.

Were there any signs of violence or protest at that gathering?

1:20 p.m.

Vice-President and General Legal Counsel, Religious Liberty Commission, Evangelical Fellowship of Canada

Don Hutchinson

At that gathering there were no signs of violence or protest. It was prayer, it was singing, it was worship. There was an unscripted ten-minute moment when the crowd was chanting across.... It's unusual for the Copts, the Catholics, the Evangelicals, and the Protestants to gather together, but in such large numbers it's unprecedented. There was a moment when the people leading the service had to stop because the crowd was unanimously chanting the name of Jesus over and over again.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Was the military present and providing any security for that event?

1:20 p.m.

Vice-President and General Legal Counsel, Religious Liberty Commission, Evangelical Fellowship of Canada

Don Hutchinson

To my knowledge there was no security provided and the military wasn't present, but who knows who was in the crowd?

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Is it your understanding that at this gathering and at the other gatherings that Christians have contributed to the violence at all, or not?

1:20 p.m.

Vice-President and General Legal Counsel, Religious Liberty Commission, Evangelical Fellowship of Canada

Don Hutchinson

That's a good question, because to my knowledge Christians have not contributed to the violence. As I think I mentioned, the church in Tahrir Square, one of the main churches, was open to act as an infirmary over these last five days of rioting that took place. Doctors were housed there.

Certainly during the Tahrir Square riots in January, the Christians initiated the period of time when they surrounded the Muslims while they were engaged in prayer for their protection, and then the Muslims reciprocated. The Christian churches in Tahrir Square also opened so that the Muslims could perform ablutions, ceremonial washing, prior to their times of prayer.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

This is before our committee called on the government to tie Canadian aid to the human rights records of these nations, and I just wanted to point out for the record that I spoke with the minister for CIDA. She indicated that the Canadian government does not give any funds to other governments. Any resources the Canadian government does provide--for example, for food security and for those sorts of things--go directly to aid agencies. That's why the funding is rarely, if ever, withdrawn, because it would simply harm the people who need it the most.

Other than that suggestion, can you think of any other suggestions that the Government of Canada should consider as to how to respond to the situation in Egypt, keeping in mind there is an interim government? Even the military itself is very interim. Who do you negotiate with? Who do you try to set agreements with? These are the questions that come to my mind.

Do you have any suggestions?

1:25 p.m.

Vice-President and General Legal Counsel, Religious Liberty Commission, Evangelical Fellowship of Canada

Don Hutchinson

My report has been inadvertently taken to the clerk. I assume that is what the chair has referred to in receiving the report in English.

The recommendations are actually contained in that document. It would help me a lot if I had it back.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Mr. Chair, he's asking for his document.

1:25 p.m.

Vice-President and General Legal Counsel, Religious Liberty Commission, Evangelical Fellowship of Canada

Don Hutchinson

I'm sorry; my apologies. I believed the document that was removed—I was only sending around the pictures--

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

That's all we took, actually. The report I have up here is the one you circulated earlier.

1:25 p.m.

Vice-President and General Legal Counsel, Religious Liberty Commission, Evangelical Fellowship of Canada

Don Hutchinson

Oh, okay. Then I flipped it over down here on the bottom. I'm entirely responsible.