Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 25th, 2011

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

The grade level, yes.

I'll tell you why. It's that on the second initiative that was mentioned, in the comments from CIDA, I believe. You're talking about three initiatives, and the second is $13.5 million for a seven-year contribution regarding protocols on changing community behaviour. I was interested, with the significant investment we're making, in knowing just how much uptake there is when trying to deliver programs that would be at the capability of the citizenry. That was the purpose of that question.

The second question is this. I'm on the MONUSCO site right now, and the initial authorization from the United Nations for troop strength there in uniformed personnel was 19,815 in military personnel. I note that today it's down to 16,819 military personnel, so there has been a shrinkage of 3,000 military personnel on the ground. Do you know whether this is because there's a lack of resources coming out of the United Nations for MONUSCO and all the contributing partners, or is it because capacity has been built in the DRC so that they're able to look after their own security to a greater degree?

[Jillian Stirk]

There could be a number of reasons the personnel strength is lower than it was at the outset. Certainly there is a shortage of troops for these international missions. This is a phenomenon that we see not just in the DRC but elsewhere. There is always the pressure to be able to man at strength. Also, of course, because of troop rotation, sometimes the numbers do vary with troops moving in and out during their rotation.

I might also add, since I have the floor, that although the number of Canadian personnel there is rather small, our officers and soldiers are generally deployed in areas where they have specific niche capabilities that many other armed forces would not be able to provide. They might be working on legal issues--for example, there are officers from the Judge Advocate General. So there are very specific niche capabilities that correspond both to Canadian interests and to the needs of the peacekeeping operation.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you.

I'll let me colleagues continue from there, Mr. Chairman.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Thank you.

In your opening remarks, Ms. Stirk, you comment about how, historically, the eight neighbouring countries used to have an influence on the instability in the Congo. What's the status of those neighbouring countries? Are they still trying to interfere, or are they now on their own?

[Jillian Stirk]

I would say that the Great Lakes region as a whole remains an area of instability. The wars that have driven the crisis over the last few years have been brought to a halt, generally speaking, but that doesn't mean that we don't have pockets of instability, incursions across these very porous borders. I mentioned some of the groups, the Forces rwandaises, and also the Lord's Resistance Army, that remain active in the area.

So while we've certainly advanced from the situation we were in a number of years ago when the Congo war was under way, I would say that there are certainly pockets of instability and that these activities take place across borders.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Later on you made the remark that more than 15,000 people had been raped in 2009. Is that an estimate, or is that a reflection of a very strong reporting mechanism that exists within the country?

[Jillian Stirk]

Yes, Chairman, these figures come from the UN Security Council reporting. I would say that they are considered to be reliable, but I would also add that all of the reporting that takes place in this region marked by instability is perhaps not as rigorous as one might like. Nonetheless, it's considered to be a very accurate assessment of the situation.

I believe my colleague from CIDA has a comment as well.

[Julia Hill]

The statistics, as they are provided, are reliable; that is to say, that is the number that has been reported. But we know this kind of violence tends to be underreported everywhere.

Do we have a really accurate picture of the size of the problem? It's difficult to say that we have absolutely perfect numbers because we know of the phenomenon of underreporting.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Right. That's what I was trying to get at. Was it trying to compensate for that phenomenon or not? And you're saying it's an accurate reporting.

The last question I have before I pass along to my colleague is this. You talk about the lack of judicial support, and I notice there's a number of projects that provide support for the police to respect human rights. We provide military officers and civilian officers to strengthen their correctional systems, but what are we doing to actually train judges and lawyers to prosecute these crimes?

[Jillian Stirk]

If I may, I will just provide a few examples. Canada is supporting a $2.8 million prosecution-style project, from 2010 to 2013, which has the goal of professionalizing the military, holding the military accountable for their actions, and building a complementary capacity for crimes that fall under the Rome Statute.

Another project aims to support judicial and penal institutions in the eastern DRC. This $2.6 million project aims to reinforce the organizational and functional capacities of justice institutions.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

I see it talks about the four peace courts. Are they building these courts? Are they recruiting judges and lawyers? It wasn't clear from these remarks.

[Jillian Stirk]

My understanding is that, generally speaking, we focus more on capacity building than on the actual bricks and mortar.

Perhaps you have something to add.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

I think what my colleague just said is absolutely right. Our programs aim more at capacity building and training rather than at the actual building of prisons in the DRC.

For example, we are working to equip the Police Nationale Congolaise with multimedia training tools. We want to equip them so that they will be able to promote respect for human rights and combat sexual violence. This program has focused as well on the role of military justice, which includes the police in the fight against sexual violence and the protection and security of people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We have just one minute left in this round.

Mrs. Grewal.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I have a short question. Could you please tell us what success the international community has had in preventing sexual violence? Is there anything that can be built upon?

[Jillian Stirk]

We certainly see that there has been some greater understanding and appreciation for the complexity of the problem that DRC authorities are engaged in. One of the examples I gave was the trial of the military officers who had been involved in a mass rape earlier this year. We felt that was very much a turning point. This was the first time we had seen this kind of action taken, particularly at a relatively high level. Certainly, there’s a greater awareness and appreciation of the problem and the need to take action. Nonetheless, as we've all described, it remains a serious problem, particularly in the DRC, and sexual violence, sadly, remains a tool of war, particularly by a number of these armed groups.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

I would add that there's a greater capacity to prosecute as well. The government has adopted a zero-tolerance policy with regard to violations of human rights, including sexual violence by the armed forces. It doesn't mean that it's been fully implemented, but we can see a positive trend. A lot of work remains to be done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

It's time now to go to the third party. Professor Cotler.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This first question is to Jillian Stirk, but anyone can answer. You referred to the upcoming presidential and legislative elections and also some of the problems attending them—logistical delays, etc. I met with one of the presidential candidates in the upcoming election,Guillaume Ngefa-Antondoko. He has expressed concern about the security threats to members like himself from opposition parties—and, indeed, the targeting of opposition candidates—harassment, and the like.

You mentioned your concern about the orderly conduct regarding the elections. His specific concern and question was whether Canada could somehow help protect the security of people like himself who are candidates for the presidential election. Otherwise, the whole question of a free and fair election is comprised because of security threats.

[Jillian Stirk]

Indeed, we are quite concerned about the security situation and the potential for violence in the lead-up to the forthcoming presidential elections. We very much look to MONUSCO, I would say, to provide security during this period. Part of their role will be to provide the logistical, technical, and security support for the conduct of the election. Certainly, we have been delivering clear messages to the DRC government about the importance of conducting the election in a free and fair manner and ensuring that all candidates have the opportunity to participate in an open and transparent way.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

I'm going to move to another question, also referring to your testimony, Ms. Stirk, and I want to commend you for the range of involvements with regard to the issues of sexual violence.

As your own brief acknowledges, “widespread rape and sexual violence continue and have reached epic proportions in eastern DRC”, and the consequences, as you acknowledge, are devastating.

My question is that in addition to those particular initiatives with which Canada is now engaged, are there other specific initiatives you might recommend we could be involved with or initiate in order to help combat this devastation to human life, as you put it, by “epic proportions” of mass sexual assault?

[Jillian Stirk]

Indeed, it's a very troubling issue, and one for which I think there is no straightforward answer.

I would suggest that part of the question is that it's a larger regional problem. Much of this is rooted in the history, particularly in the recent history of conflict, and some of the answers will lie in bringing peace and stability to the broader region.

In terms of what Canada can do, we've worked through multilateral institutions; I've mentioned some of the work we've been doing with the UN and with the ICGLR. I think being able to have those multilateral approaches remains very important in terms of having an impact on the ground.

Likewise, we work closely with a number of our closest allies and partners there. And then of course we have the various projects we have mentioned. We're constantly reviewing to see what other avenues we might pursue and where our assistance would be most useful.

Perhaps my colleagues have something they'd like to add.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

I would add that the advocacy side of this issue remains very important. It was mentioned in our statement that Canada has greatly contributed to raising awareness about what's going on there. Other countries, other partners, are also concerned and they are doing initiatives similar to ours.

I think we have to keep the pressure on, and we have to continue to bring up this issue and encourage our partners not to forget about it as well. Canada cannot do everything on its own. Obviously we work with others—we work with the UN. But beyond the money we can invest, I think the advocacy side remains very important.

[Julia Hill]

If I may add to that, Mr. Chair, I think we need to remember this is a long-term problem. These are social fabrics that are very, very badly frayed; child soldiers who were obliged to rape members of their own family....

The social values in certain parts are so damaged that it is going to take generations to repair. We have to have the patience to stay with it for the long term.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I'm sorry to move to different topics, but I would like some follow-up questions, and I just want to get to this third issue.

In April 2010, Canada announced a welcomed contribution to the G-8 initiative on maternal and child health, but regrettably it didn't include programs with regard to access to safe abortions. If one looks at the evidence in that regard, programs that give women and girls access to a full range of family planning—let me put it that way—and obstetric care options are the most effective at reducing preventable maternal deaths and childbirth injuries.

Is there a recommendation for a policy to be put in place to remove the restrictions with respect to this financial contribution so we can provide greater obstetric options, family planning, and protect against maternal deaths and childbirth injuries?