Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 17th, 2011

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Yes.

[Alex Neve]

Obviously, most things within the United Nations do.

I think the starting point is to highlight that the Government of Sri Lanka itself is strongly opposed to the idea of an international investigation going forward. That in itself would obviously be one very significant obstacle to carrying out an effective international investigation, because without the cooperation and collaboration of the Sri Lankan government, it will be difficult. It wouldn't be impossible, but it would be very difficult for that investigation to be carried out. One could imagine, for instance, the Sri Lankan government even refusing to grant permission to international staff, members of that investigation, to travel to Sri Lanka to do on-the-ground work. So that's one obstacle.

The second obstacle is that there are a number of other governments within the UN system that are willing to support Sri Lanka's cause here, which is not new or unusual. There have certainly been times in the past when Sri Lanka has been able to rally other governments to its side on crucial UN votes. One thinks of the special session of the UN Human Rights Council that was held in May 2009, in the aftermath of the horrific final few months of the armed conflict in Sri Lanka, a time when rampant human rights violations by both sides in the conflict were at the forefront of the international community's attention. The Human Rights Council should have grappled with that very seriously. Instead, Sri Lanka rallied other governments to its side, and the outcome of that special session was a congratulatory message to the Sri Lankan government for having won the war.

Those are the dynamics and politics that tend to play out within the UN around Sri Lanka, and that's why it's going to take a very thoughtful, comprehensive strategy to get us there and some small steps, as I was laying out, including at the next session of the UN Human Rights Council. That would be one small step forward. Those are the kinds of things we need to be focusing on.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

So the first step would be to secure the cooperation of the Government of Sri Lanka, not going to the United Nations. So you're saying that the United Nations didn't want to act because it knew that it wouldn't get the cooperation of the Government of Sri Lanka.

What steps should the Commonwealth organization or something like that take towards the Government of Sri Lanka? Are there other things we could do to ensure their cooperation before going to the United Nations?

[Alex Neve]

We have to remember when we talk about the United Nations, there is no such thing as the United Nations. It's of course a whole bunch of different nations, all of whom have slightly different positions and policies and goals on any issue, including Sri Lanka.

Some may be thinking very constructively, okay, if we're going to move forward with some sort of UN led investigation there, it's really only going to be effective if we get Sri Lanka on side. So let's constructively think of the way to do so. There are other nations who aren't thinking constructively but obstructively. They're receptive to Sri Lanka's pleas to block this, and Sri Lanka is saying, we don't want this to happen, so stand with us in opposing this.

The strategies need to take account of both of those possibilities. Ultimately we may reach a point where it becomes clear that it's going to be absolutely impossible to obtain any kind of cooperation and collaboration from the Sri Lankan government, and at that time we and other organizations might say to UN member states, you have to move forward with it anyway. Here's the way you need to do so, even without Sri Lanka's collaboration and cooperation.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We'll turn now to Professor Cotler.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to express appreciation to all the witnesses today; to Mr. Samathanam for his compelling testimony about his personal experience of the situation; and, of course, to representatives of Amnesty International who have been with this issue for a considerable period of time.

I will mention parenthetically that just before coming here, Wayne Marston and I held an urgent press conference on the matter of the imprisoned Egyptian blogger, Maikel Nabil, who's in the 87th day of a hunger strike. In that press conference, where we called for his immediate release and the dropping of charges, I mentioned that Amnesty International had actually adopted him as a prisoner of conscience in August 2011. He became, in effect, almost the first prisoner of conscience in the post-Mubarak era. So I want to express appreciation for that.

[Alex Neve]

I express appreciation back to you, then.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I'm now serving as his international legal counsel, so it's very much appreciated.

Now, on this issue, it seems to me that the generic concern here is to establish an international, independent accountability mechanism to combat the culture of impunity, to ensure that a negative precedent will not be set by failing to do that, and to assist with reconciliation in Sri Lanka. This was the recommendation made by Ban Ki-moon's own advisory panel. He then said he did not have the authority to do that. I don't know why, because it seemed to me that he did—but we'll leave that aside.

I know that in your report, you recommend that Ban Ki-moon should work together with the UN Security Council, the General Assembly, and the UN Human Rights Council for that purpose. From your testimony today, I think the more specific and direct route might be going to the UN Human Rights Council immediately, and where Canada can play a role is by effectuating the establishment of such an appropriate accountability mechanism and mandate as quickly as possible.

Turning to the last point—because much of this has been by way of inviting any comment—you also mention in your report that member states, under the principle of universal jurisdiction, can themselves seek to exercise that principle and hold Sri Lankans responsible with respect to any violations of international humanitarian and criminal law.

Is it your view that Canada would have a role to play in this? I would think we would, because we are one of the countries that has actually established a universal jurisdiction mechanism through the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act and we are a state party to the ICC.

[Alex Neve]

That's a very good point.

It's important to highlight that there are two ways forward in ensuring that justice and accountability advances in Sri Lanka. The first is the need for a large, overarching process of some kind—an independent international commission or investigation—but the second is case-specific work.

We strongly endorse the notion that when individuals are found in other countries who may have been in the Sri Lankan military or among the Tamil Tigers—or either side of the conflict—and against whom there are credible allegations of their responsibility for serious crimes under international law, such as war crimes and crimes against humanity, then absolutely, countries should act.

Canada could and should be a leader there. As you highlight, our law is in order. The Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act gives us the jurisdiction to do so. We have the personnel in place: we have specialized units within the Department of Justice and the RCMP to advance that kind of work. That's another way in which Canada can demonstrate how serious we are about advancing an international accountability agenda for Sri Lanka.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Is my time up?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You have one minute, Mr. Cotler.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I noted in your report, and I understand the reasons you gave today, why you wouldn't and didn't appear before the LLRC. But I think you indicated that if a credible, independent commission were established—with an appropriate mandate respecting accountability, with witness protection, and with an undertaking to bring those responsible to justice, etc., as set forth in your report—then Amnesty International might be prepared to appear, under those circumstances.

[Alex Neve]

Absolutely. We want to put our money where our mouth is when it comes to this need for justice and accountability.

We feel we have a lot to contribute and offer in Sri Lanka, whether it be the results of our many years of human rights research in Sri Lanka, or some of the recommendations and thinking we've done over the years—in collaboration with Sri Lankans themselves, of course—about the kinds of reforms that are necessary to move forward with human rights change in the country.

We would welcome the right body and the right process being in place to come forward and share that sort of information. But the LLRC is not it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Ms. Grewal, we go to you next.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Could you please tell us to what extent the government's political opponents, other dissidents, and other kinds of human rights defenders are able to operate without any harassment?

[Alex Neve]

Do you mean if they able to cooperate with the LLRC?

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Yes. Without harassment are they able to operate there?

[John Argue]

Sorry, I didn't understand your question.

I don't believe others are, no. I think the mandate and the practice of the LLRC, during the months it did operate and listen to groups or individuals, discouraged many people—or certainly groups. To my knowledge, there's certainly no international human rights group that has appeared before it.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

In your assessment, have this year's local government elections been free and fair?

[John Argue]

As always, there's discussion and dispute about that. The general comments have been that they were free and fair. The established statements are that, in fact, they were free and fair. But there are qualifications: Individual reports by the organization to which I contributed my time pointed to serious questions. I think, at the least, Amnesty would say there should be improvements to the process. There can certainly be improvements.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

David, do you have any questions?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

It sounds as though we've completed our questions.

I'm a bit worried. Early on I cut off Mr. Neve when he was about to go through some stuff.

I have a sense that you were trying to get through a series of recommendations. I'm not sure if you managed to squeeze them all in. If not, now might be the opportune moment to finish them.

[Alex Neve]

I had three main recommendations. I think I got two of them in front of you. One is that we certainly look to the Canadian government to remain very active at the UN Human Rights Council, and the March session in particular. We think that's vital. The other is to really move forward with a two-year Commonwealth agenda, starting now and leading up the summit in 2013.

The third would simply be, in a more general sense, to highlight how important it is that Canada maintain, and we would say even strengthen, the attention given to human rights concerns, in particular justice and accountability issues, in our bilateral relationship with Sri Lanka.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much to all our witnesses.

To all of our witnesses, thank you very much. We appreciate your coming forward and bringing this very important matter to our attention. Thank you.

I just have to take a moment to consult with the clerk about something before I dismiss the members of the committee.

There was a matter I was looking at with the clerk, but it sounds as though she's been talking with members behind the scenes. We've made the necessary changes to the witness list.

The meeting is adjourned.