Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on June 10th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Order please, colleagues.

This is the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Today is June 10, 2014, and we are having our 33^rd meeting.

We are televised.

We are continuing to look into the rights of women in Afghanistan. We have with us as a witness, from Traverse City, Michigan, Staci Haag.

Ms. Haag, we've already discussed off camera the way in which this committee operates, so I invite you to begin your testimony. Thank you.

[Staci Haag, As an Individual]

Thank you.

My name is Staci Haag. I am an independent consultant who has worked in both the NGO and the private sectors, specifically focusing on democracy, governance, and women’s issues for the past nine years or so. I've just returned from 19 months in Afghanistan, where I served as the communication and outreach director for a large USAID-funded project that was focused pretty specifically on governance from a local level.

I would like to start by thanking the committee for offering me the chance to speak. I've been doing the fieldwork for, as I said, nine or ten years, and a lot of times the gap between the people who design the programs and the people who implement the programs is fairly large, so I really appreciate your taking the time to listen to me.

The general status of women in Afghanistan is not good right now. There have been a lot of studies and a lot of statistics. A recent education study showed that the literacy rate overall for the country is 34%, and for women it's 18%. In the rural areas, where 74% of the country lives, the literacy rate for women is as low as 10%, and it's only in the 30% range for men.

Other reports from organizations such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International show that there has been very little practical progress in addressing basic human rights issues for women, including health care, maternal health, and protecting them from violence. But there are a lot of numbers out there, and I understand that you're just starting your work, so as opposed to giving you a lot of numbers that I'm sure you'll be bombarded with as you process those through, I'd like to give you a couple of caveats to keep in mind as you wade through different statistics.

On the first statistic, the first thing to remember is that a lot of the more rosy reports in Afghanistan tend to show progress at a statistical level: we've had a 100%, a 50%, or a 200% increase. That's great, and I don't want to diminish that, but it's important to keep in mind the starting point, which was very, very grim. When you're going from, say, one to two, and you have a 100% increase, the base is very low. When you're looking at that kind of thing, both in terms of progress recently and in terms of programs that are being implemented, just keep that in mind.

The other thing to remember, which is especially important when you're talking about women, is that a lot of numbers you'll hear will be nationwide; however, there is a lot of diversity, both regionally and ethnically, in terms of access for women to health care, jobs, and education. For anything you look at, it's important to keep in mind where they're coming from. Are they coming from the Pashtun community, the Tajik, or the Hazara? It does have an impact in terms of what the starting point is.

My experience personally in Afghanistan is in implementing programs in the primarily Pashtun areas of eastern Afghanistan. There are a lot of different things I've learned, those in Afghanistan and other things, that I think would be helpful in moving forward.

I've been told to keep this fairly short so we can have a lot of questions. I do have some specific ideas that I think would be helpful in terms of looking at programs that support women in Afghanistan going forward; however, I'd like to start with a story about one of the programs I worked on recently.

Here's the short version. A key component of my job was to oversee advocacy and outreach training for local District Development Assembly members in eastern Afghanistan. One of the areas we worked in was Wardak province in the Sayed Abad district. Sayed Abad is a dangerous district in a dangerous province. The education statistics show that schools are being reopened and girls are getting more access. The reality on the ground is that even when the schools are being reopened, parents feel pressured into not sending their girls, and the number of schools being reopened is much lower than the national average.

What we found in Sayed Abad is that one of the things that worked really well was that a group of local women gathered together and ran what was in essence a textbook advocacy campaign. They decided that they wanted their girls going to school in this area, the Tangi Valley, so they got together and created a group.

Then they negotiated with both the elders and the Taliban, and they got in essence permission to reopen schools. They did not have government support yet, so the schools were in people's homes. They had to raise money in the community to pay for teachers, to pay for books. They had to get volunteers so they could hold classes in people's spare rooms.

Over time, the community hopes to get these schools registered and formalized. These aren't the types of schools that are generally promoted or that you read about in the aid projects, because fancy schools and a lot of books often make better visuals and make people feel like they're making a difference. However, I'd argue that when you take this approach, when you go through the community, it gives these schools a much stronger foundation. The simple reason is that schools that have been deemed necessary by the community and that are then approved and maintained by the people have a much stronger foundation. The quality of education may not be the best. The schools won't look like much from the outside. But getting people used to supporting girls' education, and getting girls used to going to school, is a step rooted in community desire and involvement. That's where I think foreign aid should live, especially as it relates to engaging women in countries like Afghanistan.

The above story is so far a success. Girls are going to school. They're lobbying to get books and buildings and formal registration. Things are moving forward. I've had a lot of times when things didn't get that far and the bulk of my effort was spent finding women to participate. Then, once I did get a group, they would feel intimidated and threatened and would back off. I'd spend entire programs going through that cycle over and over and over again. It is a challenge, but the first challenge before you get to that is often finding the women who are willing to participate.

With that story and those thoughts in mind, I'd like close, before we go to questions, with a few things that I think would be most helpful in terms of supporting women in Afghanistan.

First, I think any program should be rooted in advocacy and governance skills. These are harder programs to implement. They are harder programs to monitor. When you spend money to build a building or a road, it's easy to track progress. Advocacy and governance skills are a lot harder to track. They wax and wane in popularity. But giving people the skills, as we did in Sayed Abad, provides a much more sustainable base on which to build these buildings in the future with the community.

Second, any follow-on activities would be rooted in very specific campaigns giving people the ability and support to advocate to Parliament, or to work within Parliament, to pass legislation.

The third point, however, is that complementary programming must exist and have a long-term focus. The status of women's rights in Afghanistan is a great example. It has shown us that passing good laws means nothing without extensive follow-up, especially in terms of implementation. It is especially important to work on how you're going to implement and enforce legislatively post-victory.

Fourth, although this depends on different programs, the content of any advocacy or legislative advocacy initiatives needs to be the design of the people working on it. They may not be things that outsiders think are important, but if you give people a start on what they choose, they'll have much more investment in this.

Finally, any program should be diverse in community. There can be a very isolationist tendency in aid work to view every country in a vacuum. I think there is a balance between this and the other extreme to treat all people exactly the same. The difference lies in giving local activists and leaders the opportunity to learn from others who have faced similar challenges. Creating a peer and trainer network for advice and feedback is critical to the long-term success of advocacy groups, especially in countries where the ability to self-govern is a recent development.

That is my general overview. I'd like to see who has any questions on that, or any follow-ups.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much for that. It was very informative.

Based on the time we have, we'll go to seven-minute question and answer rounds. We'll go first to a government member, then an opposition member, and then back to a government member.

We'll start with Nina Grewal, please.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Haag, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for agreeing to speak to our committee today and sharing your insights on this very important issue.

Do you believe that the Karzai government has made a genuine effort to rectify the inequality that women face in Afghanistan? In other words, has there been any kind of improvement in women's rights in the time that he has been president?

[Staci Haag]

I think that's a fairly complicated question. I mean, if you look at the time post-Taliban, there have been massive increases because women started at zero.

When I was in Afghanistan, I was less involved in the national piece. I was much more involved at the local district assembly level, so I can't speak as well to the specific activities of Karzai. I can say that since the fall of Taliban, and the new government, there have been obvious increases. However, there are obvious significant lags, especially in terms of enforcement.

I think the great example is the elimination of violence against women law. It was signed to much international fanfare and international support, yet we're still seeing dramatic instances of sustained and systemic violence against women at all levels of society. There are questions about whether the increase is an increase in reporting or an increase in activities. I think that's a valid question. However, in terms of things that specifically the government has done, I think they've been a little better at passing laws than enforcing them. Looking forward, it needs to take a bigger and more important step into looking at the laws that are good and how they can focus on enforcing them.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

What do you believe that Canada can do to improve the women's rights situation in Afghanistan? Which tactics of international pressure do you believe to be the most effective?

[Staci Haag]

In terms of international pressure, I think any country that is giving aid to a country has a certain ability to carry conditions of aid with that. If you're giving money to a ministry or a certain group, you can request that women be part of the decision-making process. If there is money going through the department of education—I'm not totally sure how those decisions are made at the micro level—you can say, “I want a woman as one of your four or five seniors if you're going to be implementing this”.

I think that's an area that a lot of aid lacks, in not saying that we want women to at least be sitting at the table when the decisions on distribution are made. That's an important thing that a country can do.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

In light of recent events, such as the tragic killing of a pregnant woman on the courthouse steps by her family, do you feel that the Afghanistan government is willing to fully punish those who commit crimes against women?

[Staci Haag]

I don't think there has been that at all. I also think that punishment is also very decentralized. When international pressure has risen, the government has occasionally stepped in to take people.

However, it's also important to remember that so many of these decisions happen at the local level. Any type of reform process has to either push the government to step in or look at reform from the local level up. You can have fancy judges sitting in Kabul making decisions, but when you're in Sayed Abad, or in Zurmat, or in these outlying provinces, those decisions don't reach you.

I think they have when international pressure has arisen, but they don't see those.... It's much more about figuring out how to address this at the local level.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

In your opinion, what is the main cause for the inequality that women are facing in Afghanistan? What is a solution to this problem?

[Staci Haag]

If I could answer that, my work would be done.

A lot of it is historical and it's been going on for a long time, but I think a lot of it is war. One of the things you see in times of war is that women are often pushed to the side, “Wait. We're going to fix things. We're going to make peace and then we're going to let you into the process.” That's where the international community has a role and an obligation to say, “No. We're going to make women part of the process. If we're going to have ten people sitting around making a peace decision, we want two of those to be women or this isn't going to move forward.”

Why women are marginalized is a longer question than I think anyone can answer. I think the solutions are about pressure and having the will to back up what you say. “No, I'm not going to give you this until you do these three things.”

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I'll let Mr. Sweet ask the next question, Mr. Chair.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you very much to my colleague.

Thank you very much, Ms. Haag, for being with us.

There are a number of things I want to ask you, but maybe I'll start with this one for all my colleagues to begin their questions with. Do you have an idea of the percentage right now of young girls in school in Afghanistan? I know the regional breakdown creates an issue with the different provinces, but do you have an idea about the percentage?

[Staci Haag]

You know, I don't. I have something here that shows that it's gone up fairly significantly since the time of the Taliban, and it's also much higher among younger girls. For instance, I recently read that in Bamyan province and in some of the Hazara provinces, up to 43% of the girls are in school.

In places where I worked, in eastern Afghanistan, in provinces like Paktia province, Wardak province, or Logar province, it changes a bit among districts, but the number can be as low as 10%, 20%, or 30%. It really is a fairly dramatic increase between the different provinces. I'd say that on average, it's probably somewhere between 20% and 40%.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

We go now to Mr. Marston, please.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Staci, I just want to let you know that a number of years ago I spent two wonderful days in Lake Leelanau, not too far from where you are.

In terms of the original reasons we were at war in Afghanistan, they were unrelated to whether women went to school or not. It evolved into the discussion around putting more women in school, because it's a heart-rending issue when you realize the suffering that many of them have gone through as a result of trying to go to school.

Regarding the numbers and the disparity in the numbers you referenced when you started talking, you said that if you started at 3% and you go to 6% and it's a 100% increase, it's still nowhere near enough. Sometimes when we hear these reports I have to question whether those numbers are expressed in that fashion to augment why we were there in the first place.

I spent six months in Saudi Arabia 30 or 35 years ago. The company I was with was doing business with them, and we portrayed the Saudis as being at a certain place when they were quite backward compared to that.

I wonder what your thoughts are on the numbers and how they're being expressed back here.

[Staci Haag]

One of the things I did in my job in Afghanistan was to do profiles of the districts. One of the things we would do was to go to the Ministry of Education and ask how many schools were open and how many girls were in school. We would generally get very promising numbers, which is why I wavered so much on the earlier question about the percentage, because I don't think anyone can really give a good percentage. The Ministry of Education would say they had a certain number of schools open and a certain number of girls in school. Then I'd tell my staff to talk to the people in the community and ask if they were sending their girls to school. Depending on the district, sometimes the answer would be, “Yes, it's all good,” and sometimes the answer would be, “No, we're not sending any of our girls to school”. So it varies.

As I said, I have a fairly specific regional knowledge in terms of the eastern Pashto-speaking areas. But for most districts the government statistics are the best they can do. I don't know if they're purposely padding the numbers, but the bottom line is that if they build 12 schools, they report that they built 12 schools. Whether or not people are able to go to those schools is a completely separate question that often isn't asked.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Again, I'll go back to my experience in Saudi Arabia, and what I'm going to talk about is going to be a bit outrageous. In Saudi Arabia women's access to education was many times greater than what it is where you have been, but the violence against women, in both places, is social and cultural. When I said it's a little bit controversial...female circumcision and the damage done to women in Saudi Arabia, which is supposed to be a more modern country than Afghanistan. In looking at Afghanistan and what they're suffering through.... Even though they pass a law, I found that in that part of the world the laws don't mean a lot, because the culture overrides them and they're ignored in most cases, even by the judiciary.

Is that the case there?

[Staci Haag]

Yes. I think I mentioned earlier specifically the elimination of violence against women act, which has received quite a bit of attention for its very poor enforcement and implementation throughout the country.

There are steps that people can take in terms of educating the police and in terms of not only educating women about their rights but also enforcement, i.e., sending people to jail. If 10 men beat their wives and none of them go to jail, nobody will see anything wrong with that. Sometimes you make those shifts by creating consequences for actions. Right now there are not nearly enough consequences for those actions. If 10 men beat their wives and those 10 men go to jail for 10 years, the next 10 men will probably be less likely to beat their wives. It's just the way it works.

Enforcement is so critical, and right now it's really not happening enough.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

This country has lived through generations of war, first with the Soviet Union and then with the latest group coming in there and fighting. That has to occupy the psyche of these people in a way that very few other places on earth really know. I think it is, comparatively speaking, part of why they were held so backward in some areas.

You talked about how the more resourceful people are setting up these schools in people's homes. There is obviously a thirst for learning there, and for perhaps at the grassroots level the cultural change that's necessary in the mindset of men. That mindset has to start valuing women in a different way, and valuing their intellect as well, because that's not done at this point in time.

I think that home-school may well be that opening you need.

[Staci Haag]

Right. The important thing about it—I don't know how quickly I skipped over it—is that before the schools were started, the first people they went to were the male elders. The male elders provided a conduit to the Taliban, who were ultimately running the village. For whoever was in charge, the bottom line was that in their day-to-day lives they were led by the Taliban. So the male elders provided a conduit. They negotiated, really, with the men, convinced them that this was not something that threatened them, and got these schools open.

So yes, engaging men in this process is absolutely critical. Sometimes you do it by appealing to a father who has a little daughter. Sometimes you do it, as I mentioned earlier, by saying what the consequences are of not doing that. People understand consequences. If someone wants a big new school, a big new refinery, or some other building to be built, and the cost is that they need a woman on their team, they'll do it.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I think that's very clear.

I have one last brief question.

Since some of the international attention has been diverted away from Afghanistan, have you seen a reverting to some of the previous views that were held there?

[Staci Haag]

The women I was able to talk to in Kabul were very different from the women out in the rural areas, where I was not really allowed to travel for security reasons. The women I know have a fear of what will happen after everybody pulls out, because they feel that a lot will be pulled back.

Over the last 18 months, I have seen more and more people willing to talk about what they want, which is a good thing. It's a really good thing, but it's baby steps. I can speak only to the previous 19 months, where I feel I've seen some small progress, but the progress started from zero. Going from no girls' schools in Tangi Valley or Sayed Abad to 20 is great; it's just a very small step in the right direction.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.