Evidence of meeting #28 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was language.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Arnold Viersen
For sure.
We'll go to our second round. These will be five-minute rounds of questioning.
First on the list, I have MP Anita Vandenbeld.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Mr. Chair, does this mean we will not have a second question for our side? If that's the case, I'll probably split my time with Ali.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Arnold Viersen
Yes, my understanding is that we would just do one more round.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
In that case, I'll split my time with Ali. I'll try to be very quick.
Some of the things you've testified today included the spectre that we will have a generation that will lose its language and culture if we don't take action now. For every one of us here, the idea that children can't speak to their own grandparents is absolutely heartbreaking, but it also inspires anger and action, so thank you very much for testifying.
I have a quick question for Mr. Therchin. You mentioned a couple of things, first of all, you mentioned human rights defenders and the need for Canada to do more to help the human rights defenders who need to come here. We first proposed through this committee, and now the government has created, 250 spots for human rights defenders to be able to come to Canada annually.
Do you think this is something we should expand and increase and allow globally, and also for Tibetans, more human rights defenders as a unique stream of immigration—not as refugees or as immigrants but specifically, so they can come? Then if they need to return or stay here, it would be flexible.
2:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Canada Tibet Committee
Certainly, if there is a scope for expansion of the committee, invitations should be sent to Tibetan human rights defenders from inside Tibet. Many committee members would know the story of Tibetan language advocate Tashi Wangchuk, who was sentenced to five years in prison just for advocating and speaking about the preservation and promotion of the Tibetan language to a New York Times reporter.
The Canadian government has issued statements for the immediate and unconditional release of Tashi Wangchuk in the past. We have communicated with Canadian officials at the embassy in Beijing, and we're thankful that the embassy sent its official to try to get inside the court, when his sentencing hearing was about to happen.
Unfortunately, and not surprisingly, Canadian officials, as well as officials from other countries, were not allowed to get inside the court to hear about the details. This is usually quite common to many Tibetans, which is something I have spoken about in my previous testimony at the foreign affairs committee. Many Tibetans who are political prisoners or prisoners of conscience do not have the right to access lawyers and do not have the right to access their families when they are detained.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Thank you. Those are very important recommendations.
The flip side of the human rights defenders who are still in Tibet is those who are here today. Mr. Therchin, you said something about how there's been a change in the last couple of years.
Would you think there would be a need for the federal government, maybe within the RCMP, to create some kind of a protective service, maybe a public persons protective service, for people who are targeted, specifically because of their activism?
Is that something you would...? I'll ask for a very quick answer, so I have some time left for Mr. Ehsassi.
2:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Canada Tibet Committee
Thank you for this very important question.
The best person to really answer this question would be my colleague who is actually sitting here today, because Chemi Lhamo has been a victim.
Chemi.
2:05 p.m.
Chemi Lhamo Community Organizer, Human Rights Activist, As an Individual
Yes, I'll keep it short. There's also a report by Amnesty International that has been presented multiple times. I've personally testified here more than twice with the recommendations. The first recommendation, which is the low-hanging fruit, is a point person to be able to direct resources or connect us to individuals who could support us, because we've always gone round and round, and never really had the support. My case was presented in 2019.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
We'll remember that for our recommendations.
Mr. Ehsassi, I don't know if there's time left, but go ahead, please.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
I think I have 30 seconds. Thank you, Ms. Vandenbeld.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'll jump right in, and I will preface it by saying, as Canadians, we obviously understand the significance of language and identity.
I wanted to ask Mr. Therchin about the GAC funding that was made available. You touched on it. Can you tell us about the significance of that, and whether there is more funding required going forward, for preserving the Tibetan language?
2:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Canada Tibet Committee
As I mentioned in my opening remarks, GAC has funded this. As far as my knowledge is concerned, this is the second project that has been funded in the last six years, and the project is still going on. The project deals with helping Tibetan schools in India and Nepal—covering over 76 Tibetan schools—by offering them the opportunity to learn in their own Tibetan language. We're talking about Tibetans in exile.
As I mentioned in my opening, this presence and opportunity shows the Chinese government that Tibetans, if given an opportunity, could succeed. The Tibetan language, as my colleague from the Tibet Action Institute mentioned, has all of the qualities to succeed as a language in whatever aspirations one has.
The Central Tibetan Administration has requested that the Canadian government continue this funding. I would appeal to this committee for the continuation of funding to Tibetan schools in India and Nepal.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Arnold Viersen
Thank you.
We'll now move to MP Aboultaif for five minutes.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB
Thank you.
The Chinese government has signed on to the United Nation's declaration, article 26, on education and the parents' “right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.” What is going on here? The Chinese government now is doing the opposite.
I would like to know from you whether there is pressure from the United Nations on the Chinese government to fulfill this signatory commitment.
Following that, I would like you, if you don't mind, to touch on the role of the religious institutions in fulfilling the agenda of the Chinese government regarding Tibet. Thank you.
2:10 p.m.
Senior Researcher and Strategist, Tibet Action Institute
Thank you very much.
The Chinese government has been responding to the world starting to criticize the institution of colonial boarding schools. We have noticed that, after the United Nations sent a communication to Beijing, after seeing news of hearings being held in the U.S. Congress, and now in the Canadian Parliament, the Chinese government is really taking this issue seriously.
Contrary to the wrong conventional wisdom that the Chinese government doesn't care about what the world thinks—nothing will move Beijing, they're too powerful, they won't budge—contrary to all of that, Beijing actually cares a lot. They have been responding from the highest levels, writing in their own media channels about this issue and trying to fight us back.
That's why they're trying to come up with all of these fictitious arguments about why Tibetans should be in boarding schools, and why the Tibetan language is not adequate for learning math and science. If there is continued building of more pressure from the world, from governments, from various organizations, I think it is possible for the Chinese government to budge and to change its behaviour and to change its policy.
We've been hearing whispers that in some small places, in some counties in Tibet, there seem to be new changes on the ground. There is some reversal of policies that are not written, that are not completely official yet, but there is some adaptation and change happening on the ground. We see these as signs that, if the world takes action, we can actually change China's behaviour.
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB
Terrific.
My second question is for Mr. Rabgyal.
Can you advise us on what I think is a very important question? What is the role of the religious institutions in fulfilling the agenda of the Chinese government?
2:15 p.m.
Abbot, Tashi Lhunpo Monastery
[Witness spoke in Tibetan, interpreted as follows:]
In relation to His Holiness the Panchen Rinpoche post-1959, His Holiness the 10th Panchen Rinpoche had worked tirelessly for the continuation of various religious institutions, but also had worked tirelessly for the spread of education and the preservation of our Tibetan culture and the education system. His contributions are insurmountable. Since his passing, the impact on the Tibetan community and Tibetans has been terrible. That is the impact of His Holiness Panchen Rinpoche, the 10th reincarnation.
If I may just add, in the statement earlier, it was mentioned that His Holiness the 10th Panchen Rinpoche had passed away suddenly and mysteriously. Right after that, there was the 11th Panchen Lama, Gedhun Choekyi Nyima, who was six years old when he was kidnapped and abducted. That clearly shows how far the Chinese government can go when there are religious institutions that pose a threat to them.
His Holiness the Dalai Lama has also publicly expressed his deep sadness for the passing of the 10th Panchen Rinpoche because should the 10th Panchen Rinpoche still be alive or the 11th Panchen Rinpoche still be here and known to the world, the impact on the Tibetan community would have been insurmountable. Hence, His Holiness the Dalai Lama has also publicly spoken about how impactful His Holiness the 10th Panchen Rinpoche was and how important it is for us to find the 11th one.
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Arnold Viersen
Thank you.
We'll now hear from MP Brunelle-Duceppe for five minutes.
2:15 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Dorjee, much has been said about the residential boarding schools where education in Tibetan and religious practices are forbidden. Some people also describe a kind of forced political indoctrination of the children at these schools by Beijing.
What do you think of that?
2:20 p.m.
Senior Researcher and Strategist, Tibet Action Institute
That's a really important question.
In the place of religious and cultural education, not only are Tibetan children not getting the kind of education that is relevant to their own culture, their own history and their own world view. Tibetan children are actually being given a very politicized, extremely strong propagandistic version of the Chinese Communist Party's world view.
The shocking thing is that it starts very early. They don't even wait until children are 10 or 15 years old. Kids who are four, five or six years old are already being bombarded with this type of propagandistic, politicized indoctrination. Basically, they're removing what makes a child Tibetan, which is their families' cultural, local, scientific, natural and ecological way of being in the world. It's not only the language, but the psychological orientation to this world. While taking out all of those things, they are filling that empty vessel with political indoctrination about how great the Chinese Communist Party is and how terrible the Japanese occupiers and the Japanese soldiers are.
That's just one example. I've seen some of these textbooks with images that are extremely violent, extremely disturbing, extremely bloody and extremely gory. Those are the kinds of books that are used to teach very young children, starting from five or six years old. That is the reality of the type of indoctrination and political education they are getting.
2:20 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much.
Ms. Choekyi, I would like to ask you a simple question.
You probably know that some of my colleagues and I have been banned from entering Chinese territory. This is obviously political.
When one fights against the Chinese communist regime, as we have done to advocate for the Uyghurs, for example, and for Tibetans and so forth, a certain rhetoric against us appears, saying that our remarks are racist toward China. When this happens, I believe it could be a case of Beijing propaganda, which then echoes in the public sphere.
How important is this propaganda in the public sphere? In your view, how can one avoid falling into this trap?
2:20 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Tibet Watch
Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, for the question, which relates to Tibetans and to everyone else who has been supporting Tibet for years.
I think that first of all, it is important to trust that we are fighting for the Tibetan cause, because it is a cause in the service of truth, and there is no freedom in an occupied country. The country has been under Chinese occupation for over 70 years.
Therefore, we are defending values that are very precious to us in a democratic country. Even if these arguments may nevertheless seem very dangerous, in our hearts and in their essence, it is because we are fighting for our values, which are just as precious to us as they are to other people.
2:20 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much.
Mr. Dorjee, in October 2020, you published an article in Foreign Policy magazine in which you mentioned tools for promoting democracy that were moderately successful in smaller regimes, but that failed against Beijing. That was partly owing to the surveillance state put in place by the Chinese government against its people.
How does China use surveillance data to suppress its people, particularly the Tibetan minority?
April 21st, 2023 / 2:20 p.m.
Senior Researcher and Strategist, Tibet Action Institute
Thank you.
The Chinese government has been very effective and rather successful at mobilizing big data totalitarianism and various transnational tools of tyranny to silence Tibetans abroad in the world and also to repress Tibetans inside Tibet. One key tool they use to achieve this is by linking Tibetans living in the diaspora to their family members in Tibet. By using that linkage and that relationship, they use families who are in Tibet as hostages. They are quite blatant about it.
I know a lot of Tibetans—Tibetan Americans or Tibetan Canadians—who have travelled to Tibet. They get told by these United Front minders explicitly and directly, “You guys live out there in freedom, in the free world, but if you say anything critical of the Chinese government, just remember that your family is right here under our thumb.” That's the specific kind of threat China is using as a strategy to silence the world.
Within Tibet, there have been cases where DNA collection without consent has taken place in schools and in various communities. There are still a lot of questions about exactly what the Chinese government is trying to do with this, but it is nothing benign. Nothing good is ever going to come out of this.
We do live in a very scary time, when the world could go to a very different place. China is at the cutting edge, is leading and is at the frontier of how technologies are being mobilized to increase tyranny. The dream we had 20 years ago was that the Internet would liberate humanity and bring democracy and that the technologies of liberation would help us. Instead, the Chinese government is playing a huge role in inverting this whole logic.
Right now, that is another reason why we have to be really careful and hold accountable the corporations, especially multinational corporations that are out here in the west, that are benefiting from our democracy and freedom but at the same time giving their software and aiding the Chinese government to impose its tyranny not only in China but also abroad. We have to hold these corporations accountable as well.
2:25 p.m.
Bloc