Evidence of meeting #17 for International Trade in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was colombian.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Executive Director, CoDevelopment Canada
--including presidential candidates.... I'm just saying that--
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
4:40 p.m.
Executive Director, CoDevelopment Canada
--the political situation in Colombia is not as black and white as--
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
4:40 p.m.
Executive Director, CoDevelopment Canada
It's hard to be in opposition in Colombia.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK
--who describes himself as post-Uribe--he's leading in the polls, and he has no connection to any of the ruling parties--says he thinks the free trade agreement is good, and when my friends down there, who I'm talking and working with.... When I ask them what it is, it's the economy; they want a better life. Heads of households, single moms, will benefit from this agreement. Poor people who want cheaper food will benefit from this agreement. Bakers who want less expensive wheat will benefit from the agreement. When I see those tangible things, and I don't see any political support, or very minor political support, for a party that is opposed to it, I have a hard time thinking that even with 1,000 witnesses or 100,000 witnesses in a country of 44 million people, there is significant majority opposition to this agreement.
I think I'm done.
4:40 p.m.
Executive Director, CoDevelopment Canada
My point, before you cut me off, was just that--
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS
I do have a question, Ms. Wood. Welcome to our witnesses today.
I realize I don't have a lot of time left, but I do have a couple of questions and a couple of points that I want to make.
Ms. Wood, I appreciate the fact that even though you're in opposition to this agreement, you at least mentioned the fact of the indigenous people who have been assassinated. What you didn't mention is who's responsible for that. So what we continually hear is that the violence in Colombia is very complex, and it's been institutionalized in society over a very long period of time. But if you look at the graph, the graph is going upward at a major angle; it's not going downward.
My question to you is on the 114 indigenous people who have been assassinated. How many of those individuals were assassinated by narco-traffickers and by FARC?
4:40 p.m.
Executive Director, CoDevelopment Canada
Or by the paramilitaries. I have those numbers--
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS
I'm assuming they weren't just a number. I'm assuming they're real people who died in the jungle, and therefore somebody is responsible.
4:40 p.m.
Executive Director, CoDevelopment Canada
Absolutely. That's correct.
Those numbers are from the National Indigenous Organization of Colombia, ONIC, which is an organization that includes indigenous organizations from the entire country, and those are their numbers. In fact, they may be low because they had an extra 62 numbers reported to them at the end of last year, which they were still investigating when the certificate came out.
I did not see the statistics as to who was responsible for all of those killings--
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
4:40 p.m.
Executive Director, CoDevelopment Canada
--although I do know that FARC guerillas have been responsible for some and paramilitary forces have been responsible for some as well.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson
Thank you.
We'll get back to trade issues in a minute.
Mr. Cannis.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
John Cannis Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It all has to do with trade.
I'll just pick up from my good friend, Brad Trost. I really enjoyed his opening statement, because with all due respect, we've not been focusing on what's good for Canada.
Mr. Chairman, you'll recall yesterday we had a gentleman from the forest products industry, and I think two meetings ago we had another gentleman representing a very large organization. I asked him if he had unionized people, and he said yes. I asked if it would affect the industries in terms of revenue for Canada and Canadian households, and he said it would.
I think that's where Mr. Trost is coming from. I didn't know he had relatives from Colombia, but I think that adds another dimension for me from what he's hearing.
Not to trample on human rights at any cost--don't get me wrong, that's not what I'm saying--but I think we're being a bit naive if we don't think we have human rights violations here in Canada, people who have been wrongfully incarcerated, for example, and we find down the road we made a mistake.
So from that aspect, I would ask the two presenters, whom I welcome, to rethink it. When we talk about basing this yea or nay on the fact that there were election violations, Mr. Chairman, we had a referendum in 1995, and what did the news talk about? There were violations, electoral violations. There were. I know of a riding in the great city of Toronto where they talked about taking names from cemeteries, Mr. Chairman. So does it happen here in our country?
The gentleman is laughing. It happens. So I guess we should tell the world, don't deal with Canada.
Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to ask the question.... I'm just going to say it's my understanding--and if I'm wrong, I would ask the two presenters to correct me--that there is no trade deal they have ever spoken in favour of or supported. I'm saying this only so that the audience out there listening to us, Canadians who foot the bills.... I know who pays my salary, the Canadian taxpayers. I don't know who pays their salaries or their expenses. That's their privilege. But I want Canadians to know that there are two sides to every story here.
For example, they talk about kidnappings. That's very important. I come back with these statistics: in 2002 there were almost 3,000 kidnappings, and now they're down to 213. I think they've made some progress. Can they do better? I believe they should do better.
Victims of massacres: in 2002 there were close to 700. They're down to 147. I think 147 is too many. Terrorist acts: close to 1,700; down to about 450. They've made some improvements, I want to tell our witnesses.
At the end of the day, we know they're working with the indigenous communities as well. For example, scholarships are being set up to help these people get an education and be able to improve their lives. Mr. Chairman, that is a step in the right direction. The rights of indigenous people...for example, in the Durban review conference they're making these efforts.
I'm going to close here and give the rest of my time to my friend, Scott Brison, by saying let's come to our senses. We know you take a certain position--we respect that--but if you can tell me any agreements you've supported, then I'm willing to listen to you even further.
Scott, the floor is yours.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Ms. Pickard, you have said that the government has tried to demobilize the paramilitaries, and that's consistent with what the UN Commissioner for Human Rights has said. In fact, she said she was:
...impressed by the increased expenditure on government programmes to protect and support vulnerable groups. Such efforts, in a country facing such a complex and multifaceted armed conflict must be acknowledged and encouraged.
The Supreme Court and the Attorney General's Office are incredibly brave in investigating and bringing to trial public officials linked to [drug trafficking]....
We should all support their efforts in such difficult circumstances and continue to uphold the independence of the judiciary--something Colombia is rightly proud of.
Do you believe the UN Commissioner for Human Rights is a credible source of information on Colombia?
4:45 p.m.
Director of Organizing, Council of Canadians
Yes.
I think what you've spoken to in terms of the investment that the Colombian government has put into the demobilization is one thing, but the actual impact or the results of that “demobilization” program are quite a separate thing.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Part of the challenge is if they are paramilitaries and they are being paid to be paramilitaries and suddenly they're demobilized and not being paid, they don't have any way to make a living. So how do you think they're going to make a living? Somebody who had a job last week as a paramilitary...suddenly you're given your pink slip as a paramilitary and you have to do something else. What are you going to do?
4:45 p.m.
Director of Organizing, Council of Canadians
As we've seen in the region I went to as part of the delegation, Bajo Cauca was one of the main areas that had been identified, not only by human rights organizations but by the state officials we talked to, or the department officials, as one of the places where these “demobilized” paramilitaries came back and walked right back into a life of crime, because they certainly know nothing else. That has been their sole experience, their entire life.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
You are absolutely right. They are funded by crime. They are funded by illegal activities, which is one of the reasons some of us believe we have a moral responsibility to help to provide legitimate trade opportunities.
Ms. Wood, in terms of the amendment, do you view former deputy minister of DFAIT, Peter Harder, or former Canadian deputy minister, Gaëtan Lavertu, as credible?