Evidence of meeting #30 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agreement.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

  • Jeff Vogt  Legal Advisor, Department of Human and Trade Union Rights, International Trade Union Confederation (ITUC)
  • Theresa McClenaghan  Executive Director and Counsel, Canadian Environmental Law Association
  • Charles Kernaghan  Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Malpeque, PE

So what's really happening in Jordan is that factories are being located in Jordan in free trade zones with ownership from outside Jordan, and to a great extent—90%—with a workforce from outside Jordan.

12:35 p.m.

Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Malpeque, PE

According to your evidence, it's almost absolute human exploitation.

12:35 p.m.

Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

Charles Kernaghan

I would say 100% yes.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Malpeque, PE

I personally believe that if there are these kinds of work conditions in areas, and you as a country—Canada—set up a trade agreement under certain rules and conditions, you actually have a greater ability to apply pressure on that country and those companies that work within that country to improve labour and working conditions.

That hasn't happened, certainly, with the U.S.-Jordan trade agreement. How do you see getting around that? On the one hand, I certainly have been supportive to date of going ahead with the Canada-Jordan trade agreement, because I think you make progress on both sides and you do improve conditions. But given the experience of the U.S.-Jordan trade agreement, I'm beginning to wonder.

How do you see getting around that problem? Does it mean there has to be pressure from governments internationally in Jordan?

On Tuesday we had the Jordanian ambassador here. I'll just read you what he told us and then ask for your comments.

On the issue of the application of Jordanian law with respect to migrant and permanent residents, the Jordanian ambassador said this:

With our new laws, any labour in Jordan, be it foreign labour or domestic labour, is now covered within the Jordanian law. There is no exclusion and no different treatment.

He went on to say:

It has nothing to do with the origin of the worker; it has to do with the sector that they are working in. If you have a sector that has more than two or three workers, then everyone is covered.

How do you respond to that statement? What the ambassador told us is clearly at odds with what your evidence shows.

12:35 p.m.

Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

Charles Kernaghan

Yes.

This is from a U.S. cable from a high-level State Department official:

Only when the king and government believe that the U.S. Congress and U.S. administration are serious about certain reforms will they take notice and attempt some level of reform. Continued engagement by senior U.S. officials, such as...will keep the pressure on the Jordanians and indicate to them that their reform efforts are being monitored by those who also follow the considerable foreign assistance levels allocated to Jordan.

In other words, I would say that the United States government has a pretty good grip on what's going on, but they're not moving.

So I would have to beg to differ with the ambassador. This is from a high-level State Department cable. As I said, I think the State Department knows what's going on, but for whatever reason they're not breaking through.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Malpeque, PE

Then how do you see breaking through? I mean, we think we may be doing the right thing by moving ahead on a trade agreement. If you don't move ahead on the trade agreement, then you're just saying, well, the practices will continue with other countries. We have no way to apply pressure to try to change things. From your perspective, what's the best way to proceed?

I mean, it just shocks me; if this were oil instead of human workers, by God the U.S. government would be doing something. But here we are, a very rich western world, and in order to buy cheap clothes we're allowing the exploitation of human labour. It just makes absolutely no sense at all.

How do you see proceeding to protect these people's human rights?

12:40 p.m.

Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

Charles Kernaghan

I would very much be in favour of there being a conference, together with the United States and Canada, to have labour involvement from Canada and the United States, to have involvement from our embassies. I think if Canada, before moving ahead on the free trade agreement....

If there were some way to gather together with the Canadian Parliament and U.S. officials, along with labour input from Canada and the United States, I think we could make a very powerful statement to Jordan that things will have to change if a free trade agreement really does go forward.

Unfortunately, much of what goes on in Jordan is just politics. Jordan is getting rewarded for doing certain things and the workers are getting the shaft.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

Mr. Keddy.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Thank you very much to our witness.

Mr. Kernaghan, your testimony was very forthright and, without question, disturbing. I guess the question I have.... I agree with the comments by Mr. Easter that we move countries forward by engagement, not by isolation. Isolation is really only used when it's the last resource you have left, the last card you have left to play.

There's a question I'm struggling with. I'm having some difficulty with this, because you said the U.S.-Jordan agreement was a good agreement. I know that it certainly has increased trade between the U.S. and Jordan. It looked as if, from the labour point of view, it was going to bring some modernization and probably equality to labour standards in Jordan.

So if—and it's not a question of “if”, and I'm not questioning your testimony—labour rules are being broken, and in extreme circumstances in some cases, that's a question of a legal issue that should have been taken care of by the Jordanian government. This individual who is the alleged rapist should have been dealt with by law.

However, you still have an agreement between the United States and Jordan that has clauses in it that can affect trade between the United States and Jordan. What is the reticence on behalf of the American government to engage that process? I'm failing to understand why they wouldn't engage that process.

12:40 p.m.

Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

Charles Kernaghan

If I'm understanding you correctly, I think this is just above my level. I mean, I do believe that the United States government has a very close relationship to the Government of Jordan and the free trade agreement was really meant to bring Jordan into an alliance with other nearby countries, such as Israel and all. So there are a lot of things going on.

Unfortunately, I think it was this attempt that launched the free trade agreement, because it's an odd thing to have a free trade agreement where people won't work in the factories and you have to bring in guest workers.

Of course, that opens people to abuse: they don't know the language, they're young women, and they pay a lot of money to get these contracts to come to Jordan. In the Classic factory, the young girls are only allowed out of the factory for six hours a week, on a Friday, and when they come back to the factory, they're interrogated.

So something's gone wrong. Again, maybe it can be fixed, but it's going to have to be fixed with some very hard questioning of the Jordanian government.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

I appreciate what you're saying, that it may be more complicated than simply an abuse on the ground, whether that's blatant in all aspects of the economy or just in this portion of it.

We're just going to say that there's a failure on behalf of the U.S. to enforce the rules. However, that certainly doesn't lead me to believe that there would be a failure on Canada's behalf to enforce the rules. We've signed a trade agreement here with Jordan. We signed it in good faith. We expect to see improvements in labour, in the environment, and in respect for human rights. The Jordanians have told us those things will happen.

With other free trade agreements we've signed with other countries around the world.... I happen to be a supporter of free trade. I appreciate your candour and honesty in saying that you have not supported free trade agreements in the past. However, moving forward, we signed a free trade agreement with Colombia, and I want to use this as an example.

Colombia has had major struggles in the past, and it still has some challenges ahead of it, without question. Yet in every single category, life has improved for Colombians. I'm not saying it's perfect, by any stretch of the imagination, but life has improved for Colombians. Freedom of association, ability to travel, personal safety, respect for the environment, ability to find a job—in every single category things have improved for the average Colombian. Again, it's not perfect.

We would expect that this agreement should—and I'm going to use the word “should”—be able to bring some of that to Jordan. I think the whole issue of whether Jordanians themselves work in the factory is a whole other cultural issue, which we're not going to settle here today.

We still buy their products. In the past, when we've seen blatant labour abuses around the world, citizens in the United States, Canada, and the European Union have boycotted those countries. I'm a little bit shocked that, if it's as bad as you say it is, we're not seeing some of that kickback, if you will, from consumers.

12:45 p.m.

Director, Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

Charles Kernaghan

We're not experts on the case of Colombia, but I do believe they still have, by far, the highest death rate of trade union people in any country in the world, so problems do remain.

I can tell you, if any of you wanted to go with us to Jordan, I could give you my word that we could hold a meeting with 1,000 or 2,000 workers at the Classic factory, and those guest workers would speak the truth to you if they were guaranteed that there wouldn't be reprisals against them.

We did it already. We went to the Classic factory. I think we did this in 2008. We held a meeting with maybe 2,000 or 3,000 workers in a giant auditorium, and we had the Ministry of Labour there. The workers told the truth about how they were touched and groped, and about how they were beaten, and about how they had to work. In other words, it's relatively easy to find out what's happening, right from the workers' mouths and from their own documentation, and to go to see the dormitories and see how many hours they work.

I think maybe I'm a little out of place here. We are actually researchers, and we are workers' rights advocates, like human rights workers. We don't work at the highest levels of the U.S. government or other governments. Basically, our job is to investigate and to try to improve conditions and help the workers.

I'm leaving tomorrow for Bangladesh. This is what we do. We go on the ground and we do these investigations. We put pressure on the major labels to improve conditions.

We're not very much into theory.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

Mr. Masse, I believe you're splitting your time with Ève.

March 29th, 2012 / 12:45 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse Windsor West, ON

Yes, I am. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us today.

With regard to the Canada-Colombia deal, that agreement has only been in effect for six months, so I'd like to see the evidence of the improvements. The time certainly doesn't add up, in my opinion, in terms of a full evaluation of the effects of the trade agreement with regard to human rights.

At any rate, I thank you for your comments. The ambassador actually did agree, and invited us, and said we could go to Jordan.

Would you be willing to share with us your Congressional and Senate representatives who have worked on this file, elected persons, and would you be willing to work with us to create a Canada-U.S.-Jordan working group to bring to fruition the ideals of the U.S. FTA before we ratify the Canada-Jordan deal?

Would you be willing to bridge that? You're saying that it should be the ideal, and it isn't working as the ideal; we know that. How do we get there? That's the key.

I'm a big fan of the carrot and the stick: you have the incentive, but you make sure you have the stick to make sure you get to the final destination before you give away everything you've got.