International Trade Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cannings.

We'll go on to Mr. Seeback for five minutes, please.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Minister, do you consider CO2 pollution?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Yes.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Yes...?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I'm sorry. Is the question air pollution?

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

No. The question is, do you consider CO2 emissions to be pollution? Do you not know?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I don't know.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Okay. You don't know. That's interesting.

You've put in this trade agreement article 13.3(3)—“that those who pollute the environment should bear the cost of that pollution”—but you don't know what constitutes pollution. In your mind, are CO2 emissions pollution under this trade agreement?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

What I think is really—

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

The carbon emissions you guys talk about all the time—is that pollution?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

What's in this agreement are some of the highest environmental standards, which Ukraine and Canada agreed to because we both agree that fighting climate change is good and that, as they're going to rebuild their economy, rebuild their industries and rebuild from this illegal war, what they should be able to do is fight climate change but also build out their economy, so that's what's in here. I'm really proud that the officials here in Canada but also in Ukraine negotiated the highest environmental standards that we've had in a trade agreement.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Minister, I'm not going to let you talk out the clock on things not related to the question. You put a section in this trade agreement that says people who pollute the environment should bear the cost of that pollution. You and your colleagues always say carbon emissions are a pollutant. That's why you have a carbon tax in Canada.

You're reinforcing the Canadian carbon tax in a trade agreement with a country at war, and I'll explain why this is such a problem. Fifty per cent of Ukrainian electricity generation has been destroyed by the war, and you're suggesting that Ukrainians who use carbon.... Sixty per cent of their electricity is from coal and gas, and you're suggesting that it is pollution and that they should pay for the pollution. If you want to support Ukraine, why would you put something like that in a trade agreement as they're going to struggle through a winter?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I think that's your reading of how this trade agreement is going to work.

The intention—and, in fact, what happened at the negotiating table—was to negotiate an agreement that has high standards. Do you know why that's important? It's because if I look at the investments that have come into Canada for electricity generation, for battery production, it's precisely because Canada has a competitive regime that puts a price on pollution. If you look at that internationally, that's actually creating confidence among investors—global investors—and I think Ukraine wants to attract global investors, and I think that they want to fight climate change.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

You want to impose a carbon tax on Ukraine through trade.

It's interesting. Are you aware Ukraine has difficulty importing natural gas due to the financial strains of the war? They actually have trouble getting it. Winter's coming. Where's the section in this agreement to help develop Ukraine's natural gas? You probably don't know this because you seem to not have been able to answer any of my questions: Ukraine has the second-largest natural gas deposits in all of Europe.

Rather than putting in a section to say that we're going to use Canadian expertise—we're very good at this—to help develop Ukrainian natural gas so that they could also export it and defund Putin's war machine, which is critical.... Instead of doing that, you put in a section saying that the Ukrainian person heating their home with coal-fired electricity or LNG electricity is a polluter. Is that your priority?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Our priority is to stand with Ukraine. Our priority is to create an agreement so that it creates confidence for Canadian businesses to invest. Our priority is to meet the aspirations of Canadian companies who wish to export. Our—

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Ukraine doesn't need aspirations. They need to develop their LNG. That's what they need. It's not in this agreement. Why not?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

This agreement provides the conditions to actually enable that to happen, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We will move on to Mr. Sidhu, please.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you, Minister, and thank you to the officials from Global Affairs Canada for joining us here today.

I've heard from many stakeholders and they're looking forward to this. They know this agreement will provide them that basis to make investments in Ukraine and to make investments in Canada, so we can continue to grow industries in both of our countries. Whether we're talking about clean technology or the environmental impacts that businesses can have, I think this agreement really strives to promote that.

Minister, when you introduced this bill, you also mentioned your intention to lead a business delegation to Ukraine. I know those trade delegations and business delegations that are sent abroad are very impactful and very resourceful for many businesses. Could you share more of your hope of what impact leading a business delegation to Ukraine would have?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Thank you very much.

I always say that agreements are only one part of the work. The other part of the work is why they are there in the first place. They're there to create the conditions for businesses to be able to export and to invest. When businesses do well, then workers benefit as well, because they create great jobs for workers.

I am very thrilled to lead a business delegation. I'm going to look forward to working with Canadian business organizations like the Ukrainian chamber of commerce and the many others that talk to me about wanting to be there in Ukraine, to be a part of that rebuilding effort, whether it is in rebuilding infrastructure or partnering on the range of digital and e-commerce types of businesses or the range of services such as the engineering services or design services that are so necessary as part of, let's say, an infrastructure build.

I am looking forward to working with Canadian businesses and investors who have said to me that they want to be there and that they want to see their government lead a delegation and create that environment and conditions. I'll work with my Ukrainian counterpart so that we can put customers to buyers to really facilitate that team Canada trade.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you for that.

To follow up on that with officials, we hear from business leaders and organizations on how they can get involved in some of these trade delegations. I am hoping to learn more about how they can potentially participate.

Is there information you can provide on how they can get involved in this process of going on a trade delegation?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Yes, absolutely.

I mean, I just returned from a business mission. It was the first team Canada mission into the Indo-Pacific—a large-scale one. I've done several of them to Japan, but not at this scale. We had about 250 people, making up about 150 businesses. We utilized the network of what I call “team Canada trade”. We have very strong capabilities in Canada to support the work of businesses that wish to go there.

No question, we will advertise the date on which we will plan this mission. We're going to do that in collaboration with business organizations here in Canada—but also in Ukraine—that want to see a range of businesses, whether it's agri-food, infrastructure, energy, digital services, e-commerce, engineering services and likely many more.

I will always do the work of listening to them and where they see the opportunities, and we'll be there to support them and to facilitate that work.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

In the CUFTA, I was happy to see a chapter dedicated to small and medium-sized businesses.

What is the objective of this chapter, and how will it help businesses in my riding of Brampton East benefit from further opportunities?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

In all of our provinces, small and medium-sized businesses make up about 95% plus of all of our businesses. Our most innovative businesses are those very entrepreneurs.

We have certainly made it a priority in our government to ensure that the benefits of trade are accrued as broadly as possible. Some of those small and medium-sized businesses are also women-owned, indigenous-owned and new immigrant-owned, or they are businesses that have often been under-represented in our economy.

Programs like the trade accelerator program, which gives businesses that capacity building so that they are looking at new markets and how they might grow their businesses through export, is what we have been doing, along with programs like CanExport, which helps businesses take advantage of opportunities in the international marketplace.

SMEs are absolutely crucial. Why? It's because they make up such a big part of our economy. When they do well in our communities, they're creating incredibly wonderful jobs. When those small businesses are also those that have often been under-represented in our economy, like women-owned businesses or indigenous businesses, that's when inclusive trade really works to grow our communities, grow our economy and create jobs that are great jobs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We go now to Mr. Savard-Tremblay.

Go ahead, please, for two and a half minutes.