International Trade Committee on Nov. 21st, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Go ahead, Mr. Baldinelli.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I just want to respond. I think that this motion is important. It responds, for example, to the comments of the minister, when she made her initial presentation that questioned the honourable members on this side of this table for putting questions forward on the inclusion of a carbon tax.

She implied that somehow we were helping Vladimir Putin by causing some kind of delay. It was an audacious statement for her to make. I mean, we've had the ambassador here talking about what it's going to take for Ukraine to successfully come out of this war, and successful it will be. It discusses $411 billion in key areas: energy, infrastructure and agriculture. She mentioned IT military technologies as well. What we need to do as a country is support Ukraine, including through this free trade agreement, so the inclusion of this motion is fair. I think we need to examine this.

To my colleague's point, if the government is saying it can include aspects of a carbon tax, I would ask Mr. Trew with regard to his suggestion that this be amended now. We can include provisions with regard to energy security. Why would we not try to defend one of our strongest allies? Remember that it was Canada that was one of the first countries, one of the first Western nations in the world, to recognize Ukraine. We were there in 2015 with Operation Unifier. We struck that free trade agreement in 2017 with regard to Ukraine.

What we're trying to do is respond to some of those audacious comments from this government that somehow we're supporting the Russians by asking questions about what could be put into a free trade agreement.

You know, a former colleague I knew at Queen's Park, a member of the provincial parliament, Bob Runciman, served in the Senate. When trying to respond to comments like that, he would suggest that the member had more nerves than a canal horse. I mean, how does one equate asking questions with regard to what can be included in a free trade agreement with our support of Ukraine? It's ludicrous to make that suggestion. In fact, I think that this motion shows that we do support Ukraine, and we support it militarily as well.

I support this motion, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Can I make a suggestion? Since we have our witnesses here, and we have business scheduled at probably 12:40 or so, if we hold this down and go back to complete a few minutes with our witnesses, then we'll have this with committee business.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I want to continue this. We're prepared to vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I have Mr. Sidhu on the list, and then I have Mr. Genuis.

Mr. Sidhu, you have the floor.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I think what's ridiculous is what's being held up by the Conservatives. This is what the UCC wants. This is what the ambassador said she wants. This is what the Canadian business community wants. I'm not sure where this is coming from, to be honest with you, but it seems like, if we're going to be talking about what Ukraine wants and what Ukraine asks for, this is exactly what they said.

Frankly, we're being very disrespectful to the witnesses we invited here today to hear from. These are the experts we want to hear from, but instead, now we have a sideshow going on, with a random motion being presented saying that we want to study this even more.

I don't think Canada wants this, and I think it's important that Ukraine doesn't want this. They said it. We heard from the ambassador a few weeks ago, when she said quite frankly that they would like to see this passed as soon as possible so support can be provided on the ground to those in Ukraine and those in Canada who are working to help Ukraine.

We all need to be mindful that this goes against everything we've heard so far on this study. I want to put that on the floor as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Go ahead, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll just respond very briefly, and hopefully the parliamentary secretary will listen to this, because his description of the motion is wholly inaccurate. He doesn't seem to have even read it.

This motion is not about extending the study; it is about granting the committee the power to adopt amendments that expand the existing scope of the bill. That does not change the timeline for consideration. It is about expanding the scope of the kinds of amendments that can be heard and considered by the committee.

I suspect that all of the organizations that he claims support him would be enthusiastic about this motion. This motion simply gives the committee the power to do its work, to adopt amendments that would allow the expansion of munitions exports.

The parliamentary secretary should read it again, should reflect on what it says and should note that this is about giving the committee the power to consider more amendments.

When those amendments come to the table, if members decide at that time that they don't like those amendments, they can, of course, vote them down or, in any event, consider them on their merits. What Conservatives are asking for is simply that the committee be able, during clause-by-clause, to consider amendments that would have the effect of significantly easing the sale and export of munitions to Ukraine.

Ukraine needs munitions more than anything else. We have reasonable amendments that I think could gain broad support and that we would like to put before the committee in the course of this study. We need to adopt a motion that would expand the scope in order to be able to do that.

I ask Liberals and other members of the committee not to get in the way of reasonable proposed amendments that would allow the export of munitions. Enough with the performative allyship. Let's focus on what Ukraine wants and what Ukraine needs, which are weapons that will allow them to win this war.

We're prepared to vote on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Miao, before you speak, I just want to make sure that everybody is clear on what the motion says. It says:

That the committee recommend to the House that it be granted

—it being the committee—

the power during its consideration of Bill C-57, An Act to implement the 2023 Free Trade Agreement between Canada and Ukraine, to expand the scope of the study of the bill in order to support expanded munitions production in Canada and increasing munitions exports to Ukraine and support the development of weapons and munitions manufacturing capabilities in Ukraine by Canadian industry.

I just want to make sure that everybody is clear on what it says. It asks the House to grant the committee the power during its consideration to expand the scope.

It's a motion that would go to the House for adoption by the House, so the committee would then be able to expand the scope. I just want to make sure that everybody is clear on what it is going to accomplish.

Go ahead, Mr. Miao.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Madam Chair, is it possible for me to move to adjourn this debate so we can respect the witnesses and continue our questions? We can then debate this later in committee business.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I suggest that, if you want to complete the witness testimony for another 10 minutes or so, and we are going into committee business anyway, we could vote on it at that time.

Mr. Miao is suggesting to adjourn the debate completely.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

We could move to resume later.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I think we should give the witnesses their last 10 minutes, if that's okay with Mr. Seeback.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I'm okay with that, but we're not going to go in camera to discuss this motion in committee business.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Before we go into committee business, we will deal with your motion.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you. Is there agreement to do that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

For the moment, we're going to go back to our witnesses to give them 10 more minutes on the floor. Then we will deal with your motion.

Is that okay? Are you in agreement with that, too?

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

That's great.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We'll try to give the witnesses 10 more minutes.

Mr. Miao was next on the speakers list.

You pretty much lost all of your time unless you want a couple of minutes back.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I'm okay with that. I'm very easy to get along with.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Miao, you have the floor.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I apologize to the witnesses for this. I think the focus is really on your sharing with the committee what is important to this modernized Canada-Ukraine free trade agreement.

A couple of weeks ago, when the Canada-Ukraine Chamber of Commerce came to our committee, they noted that the modernized CUFTA would set a path to further eliminate trade barriers and open up new avenues for businesses in both countries.

Through you, Madam Chair, to Mr. Trew, do you share this belief? If so, what sector do you think would benefit from the elimination of these trade barriers?

[Stuart Trew]

As I understand the treaty through looking at the government materials and the treaty itself, Canada did have a free trade agreement with Ukraine before this modernized treaty was proposed. As I understand it, the big change would be in the area of services, which were not covered in the original FTA. There is a typical Canadian model for services opening, the service market access chapter. Then there's the integration of the investment treaty into this modernized deal.

There are some quite positive elements on labour. The labour protections are much better than in past Canadian trade agreements. There's some interesting stuff on procurement.

My understanding is that this was largely a way to bring the past trade agreement more in line with Canada's comprehensive trade agreements with respect to services, coverage, financial services and that kind of thing.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

From your perspective, how will this modernized CUFTA trade deal improve the bilateral relationship between Canada and Ukraine?

[Stuart Trew]

I'm not sure how I'd answer that. Canada's relations with Ukraine are good, as I understand it. There's a lot of co-operation going in a number of areas, like anti-corruption and climate change. There are all kinds of co-operation happening at different levels.

Will this agreement increase that? I'm not sure.

There is the establishment of a number of committees, which sounds quite positive. For example, there's a committee to co-operate on integrating first nations and other groups into commerce, which sounds great. Labour committees will be established, which will be quite positive for workers' rights, as long as they are staffed up and paid attention to.