Evidence of meeting #97 for International Trade in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was deloitte.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Is any of the concern from the business community—the exporters and importers—the result of them feeling that they're going to have to pay more money and that maybe they'll dispute the interpretations? You mentioned some of the more bureaucratic interpretations.
4:50 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency
My testimony would include two things. I believe the trade chain community has integrity and is trying to do the right thing. I wouldn't ascribe any ill intent to their motivation.
However, they do have internal systems that are coded a certain way. One issue we have is this: When the percentage results in a half-penny, does that penny round up or down? I don't believe the Canadian business community is fighting us on that last penny. I believe the concern they have over that issue is that they have to reprogram their internal systems.
Again, I wouldn't ascribe any ill intent to the business community. What I would point to is they need to adapt their internal systems to match how we calculate things, and I think that is part of the friction and why they've asked for additional weeks.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
You also mentioned that this may help some companies in being able to operate without using a broker. How significant would that change be? How much change will there be in the broker-exporter-importer ecosystem? How do brokers feel about that?
4:50 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency
I think we've been very mindful of not interfering with the competitive landscape, but also needing to offer a product for small and medium-sized enterprises. We definitely have a vision where small businesses that import once, twice or three times a year can deal directly with the CBSA and don't have to go to a broker.
I think the broker's added value would still be around this audit and compliance thing, to have a greater sense of assurance, so I think the brokers will still have a value-added proposition for Canadian business. Our mandate is to make sure that if they want to work without a broker, we have a system that helps them comply voluntarily.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I just want to go back to some of the contractors to see if you can answer some questions about them.
I have a list of some of the arrive scam contractors. I just want to see if any of them were included in this.
Did Tech Systems, Inc., get contracts? Do you know?
4:55 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency
I came prepared for Calian, GC Strategies and Coradix. I'm happy to get back to you off-line, but I wasn't prepared for other businesses.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Okay. For Donna Cona Inc., you also don't know. For MGIS Inc., you don't know, but you'll let us know, and for 49 Solutions, you also don't know.
4:55 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency
Again, I anticipated the question on the three firms that were top of mind, and I was ready for those. I would be happy to get back to you off-line about the others.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Okay. Were any staff augmentation companies paid as a result of this, much like with arrive scam?
4:55 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency
I'll go back to the earlier reference that there were multiple contracts. The largest and most recent contract is 2018, but going back previously, there were lots more contracts. There may very well have been. I would prefer to get you a written response with all of the details for greater clarity.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Just to be clear on that, if staff augmentation companies were paid, we'd like to know who they were and what those contracts were.
Did you do an investigation to determine that no government employees were getting contracts, much like under the arrive scam program?
4:55 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency
For all of our active contracts, the CBSA has taken the names of everybody on active contracts and is pursuing any discrepancies or concerns. We have found employees doing work for us who are listed in GEDS, as if they are government employees. We don't know whether the error was listing themselves in GEDS, which they shouldn't do as contractors, or they are employees.
We're at phase one, which is active contracts. Phase two will be historical contracts. Our intention is to pursue any funds that can be recovered.
I appreciate the point. We're at phase one, which is active contracts.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
For the active contracts, have you found any government employees who received contracts in phase one?
4:55 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency
We have a number we're concerned about, but we don't yet have confirmation of their employment contract.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
How soon will you get that confirmation back to the committee?
4:55 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency
We are working as expeditiously as we can. We share the same concern you have.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Okay.
I want to talk about something else. You just talked about a contingency plan—a rollback—which I find interesting. I've received messages from some industry stakeholders as this committee hearing has been going on, and as you can tell, they're very concerned. They said they have no awareness of any contingency plan. In fact, all they saw was a very skim PowerPoint presentation. No industry stakeholders are even prepared for this alleged rollback plan.
How can you come to the committee with the confidence that this is going to work when industry has almost no knowledge of this alleged rollback plan or how it would work?
4:55 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency
Let's talk about the rollback during the cut-over period.
The consequence on industry would be the status quo. If I'm to take the representation at face value, they would be very happy because they've been hoping the status quo is retained. During the 16-day cut-out window, which really has a 10-day critical path and six days for contingency, if we encounter an issue and need to do a rollback, the procedural impact on stakeholders is the status quo they've been used to for decades and that, I believe, they would prefer.
That might explain the lack of detailed documentation. They would be operating on the status quo.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
You'll go back to the old system that's currently in place. That's the rollback contingency plan. It's to go back to where it was before CARM.
4:55 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency
Again, during the conversion period.... I want to give you an honest and complete answer. There is a world where we would extend the 16 days. In other words, I used the words “significant issue”—
4:55 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency
I just want to finish and give a nuance. The point I'm trying to make is that we have more than one contingency plan. One of the contingency plans would be retaining the system.
