Evidence of meeting #15 for National Defence in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was treatment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alain Brunet  Researcher at the Douglas Institute , Associate Professor, Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, As an Individual
Theresa Girvin  Psychiatrist, Mental Health Services, CFB Edmonton, Department of National Defence

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

We'll call the meeting to order.

We are meeting today on our study on health services in the Canadian Forces, with an emphasis on post-traumatic stress disorder.

We have bells, I believe, at 5:15 for a 5:30 vote, so we're not going to make it all the way to 5:30. We have two presentations today. I might try to make up a couple of minutes with our first witness to give to our second, but we'll see how that goes. We will certainly make sure everybody has an opportunity to ask a question or two.

We have Mr. Brunet, researcher at the Douglas Institute and associate professor in the Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, to start. Sir, we have you scheduled till 4:30 and we'll see how that goes.

The floor is yours for a presentation, and then we'll open it up to a round of questioning. Go ahead.

3:30 p.m.

Alain Brunet Researcher at the Douglas Institute , Associate Professor, Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, As an Individual

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for the honour of appearing before this committee.

My name is Alain Brunet and I am a professor at the Department of Psychiatry at McGill University. I specialize in post-traumatic stress disorder. I have submitted a document that my group wrote recently. Over the past few years, the group has analyzed the results of the Canadian Forces Mental Health Survey, which is one of the largest surveys of the Canadian armed forces, or of an active army, ever conducted. Armies are usually quite reluctant to allow researchers to conduct surveys that are as in-depth as the one conducted in 2002. Beginning in 2004, researchers had access to the results, which had been made public. My team, which works in this field, began analyzing the data.

I am going to make a brief presentation on one of the documents that I submitted. I will then answer your questions.

There is very little data on mental health problems in armed forces. Armies are typically very reluctant to allow research of this kind. Therefore, the sample we had access to, which is representative of the Canadian Forces, is truly unique. However, bear in mind that this data was collected in 2002 and that all of the conclusions drawn were based on the premise that things have not changed since, which would be a harsh judgment of the army. I do not think we can make that judgment.

The survey involved 8,441 respondents. It was a large-scale survey, comparable to the best work that is done in the world. The survey was representative of the Canadian Forces.

What are the main findings from this research and, particularly, the data that we published recently? The first finding is that many so-called peacekeeping missions are as stressful, or as traumatizing, as combat missions. The concept of a peacekeeping mission has changed considerably over the past 10 to 20 years. We talk more often about peacebuilding rather than peacekeeping.

I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that, in the general population in the United States, the rate of post-traumatic stress, for example, is approximately 6.7%. It is important to compare the rates of the various disorders found in the army to those in the general population, to determine if they are higher or lower.

The document that I submitted examines behaviours linked to the seeking of care in cases where people had a diagnosable mental disorder within the past 12 months. Of a sample of 8,441 people, we found that 1,220 of them, or 15%, had suffered a diagnosable mental disorder within the 12 months preceding the survey. Of 1,200 people, 43% had contact with a mental health professional. On the other hand, 67% never sought help.

What disorders did these 1,200 people suffer from? Major depression affected 47% of them, alcoholism, 33%, social phobia, 22%, post-traumatic stress disorder, 16%, panic disorder, 12%, and generalized anxiety disorder, 12%.

So the most prevalent disorders were major depression, alcoholism, and a little farther down the list came disorders like post-traumatic stress disorder. Bear in mind that depression, alcohol abuse, phobias and panic disorders may also be triggered by a traumatic experience. If that factor is taken into account, the prevalence of mental disorders triggered by a traumatic event is higher than what this data would suggest.

We also looked at why people with a diagnosable mental disorder were not consulting anyone, particularly Canadian Forces members who have ready access to health care. What are the main obstacles to requesting a consultation? Three main factors came to light. The first is the lack of trust in authorities. The second is not acknowledging they have a mental health problem. The third factor is that while people may acknowledge having a mental problem, they believe that they can overcome it and want to try to deal with it themselves.

We also discovered that before asking for help, 73% of soldiers may have had up to five traumatic experiences, which means more than one deployment. They had been through many traumatic experiences before asking for help.

In light of these results, what can be done when people do not realize they are suffering from a diagnosable mental disorder? One of the things we should think about is more mental health education. People must be better educated so that they have a better idea of what they are suffering from. That is even more important because for most of the mental disorders I mentioned, effective treatment exists. The treatment is not 100% effective, but it is available. We believe that is an aspect that people do not understand. Not only are they not necessarily aware that they are suffering from a mental disorder, but even when they do know, they do not know that effective treatment is available.

Another consideration that emerged from the survey is the notion of confidentiality and the stigma surrounding mental health problems. As regards confidentiality, some participants in the survey felt that the contents of their medical file might come to the attention of their superior officer. Since Canada has an army of deployable people, you can see that if your superior officer were to learn that perhaps you were not as deployable as you should be, that might jeopardize your job. A kind of shame, a macho culture, that could fall under the umbrella of stigma, is also prevalent. It is as if becoming a hardened soldier who puts aside his emotions and everything else and recognizing at the same time that that soldier might be affected psychologically and emotionally by a very traumatizing experience were contradictory. It is as if expectations for soldiers were somewhat contradictory.

I think that committee members should look into the issue of confidentiality. Should confidentiality be improved? To what extent does confidentiality need to be breached? I think that question must be asked.

A final element emerged quite clearly. As regards psychological assessments, we should not wait for people to come and see us to say they may have a problem. Soldiers returning from a mission should undergo mandatory assessments.

Some of these recommendations have already been implemented or are already being tested on a trial basis in the Canadian Forces. However, perhaps some of these initiatives should be taken a little farther.

I will stop here and answer committee members' questions, in English or French.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

Thank you very much. We appreciate your input.

We'll start our round of questioning with Mr. Coderre.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Brunet. I read your study and I did not fall asleep. It was good. It contained an abundance of figures, statistics, and rules of three.

In short, you are telling us that there may be a link between not necessarily wanting to obtain treatment by the forces and refusing treatment. Not wanting anyone to know is one of the main reasons why someone may not want to be treated.

3:40 p.m.

Researcher at the Douglas Institute , Associate Professor, Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, As an Individual

Alain Brunet

I don't know if it is the key reason, but it is one of the main reasons mentioned by the 8,441 participants in the survey conducted in 2002.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Basically, our questions are based on the study. It is a bit like a snapshot or a sociogram. You have rules of three, among other things. I will broach that subject with the next witness, when we examine the situation in the forces.

In light of what you have seen and studied, do you think that the psychological assessment process needs to be improved? This is not just about curing someone, prevention must also be involved. The mission has changed, and Afghanistan is not Rwanda or Bosnia, although any mission may be traumatizing. A change in mission may change the circumstances, and we have compiled figures for the period beginning in 2007-2008.

What do you think about recruitment? Did you see anything related to that? Should we perhaps also improve the way our soldiers are recruited? I imagine that an expert on this disorder is in a position to see who is more susceptible to that. The factors that predispose someone may also include past sexual traumas or everyday events. We could come up with a profile of people who are predisposed to the disorder.

3:45 p.m.

Researcher at the Douglas Institute , Associate Professor, Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, As an Individual

Alain Brunet

There were two questions there. The first question was whether or not assessments need to be improved. Based on the discussions that I have had with Canadian Forces members and based on what I have been hearing, screening and assessments are now more systematic than they were in the past. According to what I have heard, people undergo systematic screening three to four months after they return. Should this screening be improved? I am not familiar enough with the way screenings are done, but I think that the idea of systematic screening is already a huge improvement.

The second question is whether or not we can recognize risk factors and whether they should guide us in the recruitment process. The answer is yes, but there is an ethical side to that. First of all, you must be absolutely certain of what you are saying when you identify something or other as a risk factor. In my view, not enrolling someone based on that consideration could cause ethical problems.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

There could be repercussions.

3:45 p.m.

Researcher at the Douglas Institute , Associate Professor, Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, As an Individual

Alain Brunet

If you refuse to enrol someone in the Canadian forces because he was a victim of abuse when he was young...

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

That is not what I was asking. I am asking if we are in a position to determine, based on a person's experiences, if he will be more predisposed to post-traumatic stress disorder than someone else.

You looked at sexual and non-sexual trauma, when considering factors for understanding the situation. We can understand what has happened after the fact, but we also need a prevention strategy. How could we do an assessment, in the same way as a physical examination is done?

3:45 p.m.

Researcher at the Douglas Institute , Associate Professor, Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, As an Individual

Alain Brunet

With a good selection process and a good assessment based on the symptoms of post-traumatic stress, I am not sure that you need to know if the person was abused sexually as a child, whether that is a risk factor or not. In fact, what we would want to know, three or four months after the person has returned from a mission, is whether he is exhibiting the symptoms of post-traumatic stress, whether he is clinically depressed, whether he is currently abusing alcohol, and so on. In the end, that is all you need to know about that individual.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Religion was mentioned. After a visit to Afghanistan, it becomes clear that the chaplain plays an important role, for instance in cases of serious trauma, such as the death of fellow soldiers. Group sessions are arranged to help soldiers deal with the trauma they experience.

What can you tell us regarding religion? I imagine that having people attending to one's spiritual needs can be helpful. It is not merely a question of medicating people.

I'm repeating what you said, because I am not obsessed by religion.

3:45 p.m.

Researcher at the Douglas Institute , Associate Professor, Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, As an Individual

Alain Brunet

It seems that it could be an element of protection for those who are religious. I imagine that it can be helpful for them to be able to speak to a person in whom they can confide.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

I'd like to come back to this famous stigmatization issue.

At this time, do you believe that decompression after missions is adequate?

3:45 p.m.

Researcher at the Douglas Institute , Associate Professor, Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, As an Individual

Alain Brunet

To my knowledge, decompression takes five days and it is done in Cyprus. Decompression seems to me to be a good idea in itself. I think that it could have a beneficial effect, because if you are back in your living room 24 hours after leaving Afghanistan, you might not be able to adjust that well.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Did you draw a distinction between reservists and regulars? There seems to be a difference between them.

Are there different approaches for reservists and regulars?

3:50 p.m.

Researcher at the Douglas Institute , Associate Professor, Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, As an Individual

Alain Brunet

I think that decompression is a good thing for everyone, including reservists.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Bachand.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First I would like to congratulate you, Mr. Brunet, because we seldom see studies that are so advanced. I consider myself to be an experienced parliamentarian, because I have been an MP for 14 years, but I am sometimes stumped by certain specific elements of your studies. I would like to ask you some questions about this.

I imagine that you have the same concern as does the ombudsman of the Canadian Armed Forces, who says that the mental health trauma centres should not be located on bases, as is the case in Valcartier, for instance. When they are located on bases, there is less confidentiality, from the moment one is admitted to a mental health trauma treatment centre. Do you believe, as does the ombudsman, that these clinics should be located off base?

3:50 p.m.

Researcher at the Douglas Institute , Associate Professor, Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, As an Individual

Alain Brunet

I agree with you: there is little confidentiality, and some people are uncomfortable with that. On the other hand, there might be some advantages to locating the clinic on the base, in terms of proximity and accessibility. I am somewhat divided over this issue.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

We, the parliamentarians, study the characteristics of a sampling, and we ask, for instance, if there is any one age group more likely than another to experience post-traumatic stress disorder. Does a person's family situation or gender come into play at all?

Table 1 shows a characteristic of the sample on the demographic and military variable. I am a bit disappointed with this—

3:50 p.m.

Researcher at the Douglas Institute , Associate Professor, Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, As an Individual

Alain Brunet

Which table do you mean?

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

I mean Table 1. There is a list of 1,220 cases out of 8,441 or, as you explained to me earlier, cases where persons received treatment during the previous year.

3:50 p.m.

Researcher at the Douglas Institute , Associate Professor, Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, As an Individual

Alain Brunet

These are persons who suffered mental problems during the previous year.