National Defence Committee on April 10th, 2008

[Col Dean J. Milner]

We continue to debrief, and I think that's the best way to do it. We've noticed that operational stress injuries can occur at any time. There's no specific timeframe. They could happen during the rotation in theatre. They could happen immediately when they come home. They could happen after six months, nine months, twelve months. I don't think there's any clinical proof of exactly when it could happen.

We continue to debrief with our leadership teams, we continue to talk about these potential stress injuries. The mental health community will debrief, will do enhanced debriefings when they come home and within a four- to six-month period afterwards. And we'll continue to do that as a command team with both the NCOs and the officers. We will continue to look at the possibilities of somebody having an operational stress injury.

So I think we have pretty good means of trying to identify operational stress injuries.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Thank you, Colonel.

I'll pass it on to my colleague Joe.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Anthony.

You say you're very soldier-oriented in your preparation and so on. We're finding out that it really should be a family-oriented situation. You've probably read Mr. LeClair's articles in the paper recently, where there's a huge effect on the family, on the wives and children of these returning soldiers, some who have and some who have not sustained injuries in Afghanistan or Bosnia and so on. They really feel helpless because a lot of times they don't know where to go, and they get accused, or their husbands get accused, of milking the system and shirking their duties and not being men, not really being counselled into other employment. There's a whole list of things they're saying they're not getting.

It's not just the soldier; it's a much bigger concentric circle here. What are we doing with regard to a more universal response to these situations?

[Col Dean J. Milner]

That's a great question. It's very key that I emphasize that, yes, the emphasis is on a solider in warrior culture but the family is absolutely paramount. The importance to us is absolutely critical. We make sure our families are also involved in the preparations to deploy our soldiers over to theatre. We make sure they're aware of all the resources we have, all the capabilities we have to help out from both the mental health capability and the family resource centres, and they have really improved since I was a commanding officer about five or six years ago.

We have a tremendous network and tremendous capability so if the family does have problems they know whom to talk to and how we can help them. Everything we do revolves around the family. It's not just the soldier. A unit is a big family. Everything we do, from parades to organizations, revolves around that family. It's not ever just focused on the soldier.

When the soldier deploys, the absolute focus for me--because unfortunately I'll be staying behind during this deployment--will be on the families. I will make sure they have everything possible that I have available to help them out.

We are improving--

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

But if they're having problems, how can they get that message to you? I mean, you can't handle everything that....

[Col Dean J. Milner]

Pardon me?

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

You rely on people under you to carry out your orders or carry out your policies, and sometimes these people are saying they don't have people who believe them down here, so you'll never hear it up there.

How do you get people to be more sensitive at a lower level instead of accusing these returnees of shirking to get a pension out of it? It's a pretty cruel thing to say to someone who has just come back, or to a wife who has a husband who can't earn a living any more.

[Col Dean J. Milner]

We definitely sensitize the whole chain of command. We focus and make sure that the chain of command, starting with my NCOs right down to soldiers, are aware of those resources that are available.

We continue to talk to all the families. I speak to the families. I go out and reach out to the families. We have numerous resources within our military community to reach out to the families. I think we're doing everything that we can, but we can do more, there's no doubt it. I think it's that culture of understanding exactly what those challenges could be for the families, reaching out as much as possible. We go out of our way.

Now, are we perfect? No. But I can tell you it's a 100% emphasis for us within the forces to do that. It is a brigade family. They are unit families. And I can say that we are making great improvements from that aspect.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Mr. Bachand, for seven minutes.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome.

You'll need your translation device. You can put it on French or English.

[Col Dean J. Milner]

I can speak French.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Excellent.

Hearing your tone of voice and seeing your self-confidence, I have no doubt that you prepare excellent warriors. I know it because I have trained—and I do not have to apologize for it—with the Royal 22. I am a Vandoo.

I would like to know what criteria you use to decide that a soldier is excellent or perfect. Do you believe that a soldier with post-traumatic stress disorder is weaker than a true soldier who will never be affected because he is very strong?

[Col Dean J. Milner]

Absolutely not. The case is that that soldier may have experienced extremely difficult situations during his deployment. It may be a very tough experience for our soldiers and our duty is to do everything in our power to enable them to face another deployment or to continue their mission within the Canadian Forces.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Let us now talk about the preparations. I have heard it said that some soldiers are less well prepared than others to prevent post-traumatic stress disorder. I have trained with soldiers in difficult situations but we all know that nobody can get killed during training because you are between friends. So, there is a lot of difference between how you may react to enemy fire on the training ground and on the theatre where real events happen.

I have also heard it said that it is very stressful to see your buddy being killed beside you, but we know that this could not happen on the training ground. Even if you prepare them with all kinds of exercises simulating what may happen on the operational theater, such as guns being fired, machine guns being used, etc., they know that things will be different during operations. It is when they reach the operational theater that the real stuff will happen.

Also, they will have to face not only their buddies being killed or injured but also various atrocities being committed.

What methods do you use to prepare them specifically to be able to prevent post-traumatic stress disorder? During training, do you put them in various situations reflecting what they may have to face there?

[Col Dean J. Milner]

That is a very good question but I will have to answer in English because it may be difficult for me to answer in French.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

No problem.

[Col Dean J. Milner]

It's absolutely important that we prepare the soldiers to the best of our ability, so they're prepared for the difficult situations--those traumatic events they may see in theatre. They might have a buddy who is killed next to them. There are a lot of different atrocities that our soldiers have seen in their deployments to Bosnia, Kosovo, and now, obviously, Afghanistan.

We try, as much as we can, to make the training as realistic as possible. We try to simulate every different possible experience. We put them in extremely stressful situations--under fire. We simulate mass casualty events. These are really difficult periods, where we put them under stress.

We have started to institutionalize some of that training. It's getting better and better each time. You made the point that it is difficult to completely replicate theatre, so we do the best we can. Our soldiers will tell you that they are extremely well prepared. I don't think you can prepare them much better.

We continue to look to other countries. The Americans are evolving new techniques. The Marines take their soldiers into trauma care facilities for a 24-hour period and watch them go through a number of different operations and things like that.

There are different approaches and options that we will continue to look at to make it better for our soldiers.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

If a doctor, on the operational theater or here in Canada, sees that an individual has post-traumatic stress disorder and mentions it to the commanding officer, is that officer obliged to respect the diagnostic and to release the individual for some time so that he may be treated? Could the commanding officer say that it is not true, as far as he is concerned, and the individual should remain with the group? Does the commanding officer's decision supersede that of the doctor?

[Col Dean J. Milner]

I apologize but I will have to answer in English.

It's a team. We have our doctors. We have the chain of command. We work extremely closely together. Generally our soldiers end up with our doctors based on recommendations we've had from the chain of command. I can tell you that 99% of the time we respect the doctors and mental health personnel who work for us.

We live, breathe, and fight with those soldiers, so we understand their capabilities and their strengths and weaknesses. But if a doctor or mental health care personnel says that one of our soldiers has an operational stress injury, that soldier will be taken out of the line of battle. We try to get the best resources available for that soldier so he can carry on his work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Sorry, Claude, that's over time.

Ms. Black.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

Welcome to the committee, and thank you very much for your presentation.

We've extended the mission for another two years, so it will go at least until 2011. We have a limited number of soldiers in the army, so obviously the rotations are going to continue. I've looked at this, and people will be sent back to do second, third, fourth rotations in Afghanistan.

The U.S. Army has just done a study on the issue of stress on soldiers and how it increases as they do more than one rotation. In fact this study says that more than one in four American soldiers show signs of anxiety, depression, acute stress, post-traumatic stress disorder after going back for the third or fourth time. Obviously this is going to continue to be a problem.

It sounds like we're doing the same kind of combat missions, now, that the Americans are doing. This will be an increased risk, I take it, for soldiers who are redeployed over and over again. I'm wondering how many Canadian soldiers are returning to Afghanistan for a second, third, or fourth time, and whether some kind of action will be taken, over and above what you've talked about, for those who are entering perhaps a third or fourth rotation.

[Col Dean J. Milner]

First of all...and don't hesitate; I can allow my commanding officers to give a bit more detail on the numbers. If you really do want more detailed numbers, we can actually give you those. CO 3 RCR, who is going on the next rotation, knows exactly the number of soldiers going back a second time, a third time, and a fourth time. I'll let him give that to you.

I know that our doctors and our specialists are looking at the same things that the Americans are. There's no doubt that we are learning things from soldiers who have been in combat a second time, a third time, and a fourth time. We do have some of those soldiers. We will continue to learn what's best, but with our operational tempo, as you know, we will continue to send soldiers.

Our training gets better each time. From what we're hearing from our soldiers, in a lot of cases they are better prepared for operations. We will continue to learn how to prepare our soldiers better.

Through our pre-deployment training, we do departure assistance group preparation. If we identify soldiers who aren't prepared to go back, we will take them off training to make sure they don't go into theatre.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

I'm struck by the fact that 25% on multiple rotations show signs of PTSD, anxiety, and depression. I'm really struck by that. I think it's quite a high number.

[Col Dean J. Milner]

That is a large number. I don't have those numbers for our forces. You'd have to ask our medical experts.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

If you're in Afghanistan, and you know you're going out on an operation that has a high probability of trauma, is anything done just before you go out to reduce post-traumatic stress disorder or operational stress injuries? You're going in, you're attacking the Taliban wherever they are and you know there's a high probability of injury and death.