National Defence Committee on May 4th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

We won't have time to do a full third round, but I will give one minute to Messrs. Wilfert, Bachand, and Harris. We still have five minutes, so one minute to each member and--

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

You don't have to comment. I listened to my colleague here, whom I seldom disagree with. I wanted to point out there was a study done by the human security centre in Vancouver. They looked at the reduction of conflicts, they looked at human rights violations in the world between 1990 and 2005, and there were a number of factors as to why they went down: decolonization, the conclusion of the Cold War, growth of democracies, etc. They said the United Nations played an impressive and decisive role during that period, and in fact their conclusion was that they maintained that the UN played a crucial role in opening the door to considerable progress in conflict prevention, which is one of the issues that we are talking about--peacekeeping and peace consolidation.

I just thought I would put that on the record, Mr. Chairman, because I think that is part of the discussion on where this committee will be going over the next while.

You don't have to respond, but it was within one minute.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

You are right.

Mr. Bachand, for one minute.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I'll be quick, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Lagassé, I'd like you to clarify your position. Earlier, you stated that it was not the responsibility of committees to be overly critical of government decisions. I'm not sure if you have read Mr. Milliken's ruling on the documents issue, but it is clear that Parliament, and its committees, have fairly important roles to play.

In 30 seconds, would you clarify your position, which I find somewhat surprising.

[Dr. Philippe Lagassé]

If you would like a more detailed answer, and if you are interested, I invite you to read my new IRPP study on this very subject that was published last month. It is entitled: Accountability for National Defence: Ministerial Responsibility, Military Command and Parliamentary Oversight.

However, to answer your question quickly, Parliament does indeed have a responsibility to review government decisions. However, in order for a government to be competent and fully responsible for its policies, it must be the one making the decisions.

The role of the committee is to advise the government. Simply put, your primary role is to review government decisions and to ensure that the government acts responsibly, not to make the decisions yourself.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Harris.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

First of all, I totally reject the assumptions about the United Nations that are inherent in Mr. Hawn's comments. They're not shared by me; I don't know about everybody else on the committee.

In fact, as of September 9, according to this paper, there were 83,853 UN peacekeeping troops--a record number--plus 12,000 police participating in a total of 15 operations around the world. The difference is that Canada wasn't involved, other than providing 55 personnel to those operations, about four and a half million dollars in 2010, and an average of $9 million a year over the previous six or seven years. So if Canada decided not to participate at all in the UN.... Perhaps we were burned in Rwanda and Somalia.

Do you share the retrograde views that there's no possibility of the UN doing anything in the world, other than supporting military dictatorships, and that it deserves to be ignored by sophisticated countries like Canada?

[Col (Retired) Michel Drapeau]

I'll go on record to say that I do support the UN, imperfect as it is. It's a good thing we have a league of nations such as the United Nations. It is doing yeoman's work on safety across the globe. It might not be not doing it as well as it could, but getting 100-odd member states to come together to focus on one specific point is not an easy task.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Dr. Lagassé?

[Dr. Philippe Lagassé]

Canada did not abandon the United Nations; western industrial nations with large-scale military capability, globally deployable, abandoned the United Nations. We are one among many that abandoned UN first-generation, second-generation peacekeeping as of 1995.

Can Canada contribute to renewed first-generation-style missions of peace consolidation or peacekeeping in a traditional sense, where belligerents agree to lay down their arms and negotiate? Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you.

Mr. Hawn, you have one minute.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I wasn't going to, but....

Obviously Canada supports the UN--and I personally do. We support the concept of the UN. We have problems with how the UN has executed its mission. Canada is still one of the major contributors to the UN in terms of financial support, and so on. We're probably the most reliable contributor in that regard. But we have significant difficulty with the way the UN has carried out its mission, and that's the reason for the questions. There have to be some changes here. The UN has to adapt to the reality that two-thirds of its members are not democracies--and how do you deal with that?

You can comment or not, but that was the point. It has not adapted well to the realities of the last 20 years.

[Dr. Philippe Lagassé]

I agree.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Okay.

I want to thank our witnesses, Colonel Drapeau and Dr. Lagassé. For committee members, this was a highly productive meeting.

We will now suspend the sitting for four minutes, and then reconvene in camera.

Thank you.

[Proceedings continue in camera]