Evidence of meeting #35 for National Defence in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aircraft.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier
Thank you very much.
Now I will give the floor to Mr. Simms for seven minutes.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
Merci, monsieur.
I don't want to start a whole new line of questioning as we did with the prior witnesses, but I would like you very briefly, because time is of the essence, to give me an example, for both the C-27 and the V-22, of where you're utilized right now in a search and rescue capacity.
Let's start with the C-27.
4:55 p.m.
Marcello Cianciaruso Senior Vice-President, Canadian Programs, Alenia North America Canada Co.
Alenia has vast experience modifying aircraft in order to install search and rescue maritime patrol sensors and anti-submarine warfare equipment. We have also developed, with another product, which is the ATR, a series of different configurations with the latest technology for search and rescue. We have long experience in installing those and basically creating a search and rescue aircraft.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
Can you give me an example of where that is taking place?
4:55 p.m.
Senior Vice-President, Canadian Programs, Alenia North America Canada Co.
Yes, it's particularly for Libya, Nigeria, Turkey, for the Italian navy—
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
Okay. I don't mean to cut you off, but I'm short on time.
Could I just go over to the V-22?
4:55 p.m.
Executive Director, V-22 Business Development, Bell Helicopter Textron Inc.
Yes, sir.
The search and rescue opportunities have been primarily in the United States. They've supported search and rescue missions in the mountains in Colorado and also in the Gulf of Mexico when the hurricane was present.
More operationally focused right now, two weeks ago it flew a medical patient from a ship in the middle of the Indian Ocean 570 miles to a hospital in Kenya.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
Okay. Thank you.
Let me return to my previous line of questioning, which is to say that in this country, the unique circumstance we have is a harsh climate; it's cold weather, without doubt. You have touched upon this. But the second element is that it's a vast area of land.
What competitive advantage can you bring to this for someone who...? Let's say you have an aircraft that has been told to go to the offshore of Newfoundland and Labrador and at the same time to the southern Arctic and then back towards eastern Quebec. This is a vast area of land.
What does your aircraft, the C-27, bring to the table to alleviate or improve the situation, if necessary?
5 p.m.
Senior Vice-President, Canadian Programs, Alenia North America Canada Co.
One of the key points of our airplane is that basically it flies at the same speed as the C-130 that is currently performing the search and rescue in the western area, where you need speed and range. Then, on the west coast, as you say, you need a very manoeuvrable aircraft. Our aircraft has great performance at low speed, as we said earlier. Basically, with one platform you can do the job that's currently being done by two platforms.
In terms of the vast territory, we can leave from Trenton, go to the North Pole with one stop in ten hours, do a search at the North Pole of about three hours, then go to Alert as a usable airfield, basically doing everything in 15 hours, which is one of the key points that DND specified: to have one mission within the search and rescue time for a crew, which is 15 hours.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
Okay. I don't mean to cut you off, but I want to give ample time to....
5 p.m.
Executive Director, V-22 Business Development, Bell Helicopter Textron Inc.
Essentially we can do a lot of the same things, but in addition we do not have the requirement for a runway. We can operate from any place that's large enough to hold us and that has some fuel available. The infrastructure requirements are minimal; the crew can do whatever maintenance they need to do on the aircraft. If there were a tanker available, you could literally stay in the air for as long as you can stand it.
The aircraft has been tested to 120 degrees Fahrenheit; operationally it's been tested down to minus 69 degrees. It has already proven that it can operate in the extremes.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
What about wind speeds, which are always of course a factor in takeoff, landing, and taxiing especially? What are your certification limits for safe taxiing? Are you able to handle it, given the strong winds we have off either coast—or even mountain turbulence, for that matter?
5 p.m.
Senior Vice-President, Canadian Programs, Alenia North America Canada Co.
Basically those limits are related to the propeller limits. We have the same propulsion system as the C-130J, specifically the same propeller, so we have basically the same capability in terms of wind speed as the C-130J that you recently procured.
I didn't mention it before, but our aircraft is fully civil-certified and fully military-certified in extreme conditions, and especially for ice. Related to the previous question, we did additional tests in very demanding ice conditions.
5 p.m.
Executive Director, V-22 Business Development, Bell Helicopter Textron Inc.
As a vertical takeoff aircraft, the V-22 has a rotor system that is very stiff; there's not a lot of flapping, as in regular helicopters. The specification we were designed to is 45 knots in any direction when operating off a ship. We can also roll off a runway at a number of intermediate nacelle angles to mitigate winds.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
This is a problem that I've been hearing on the ground, since I live close to one of the search and rescue bases: “Parts for the CH-101 helicopter have been a significant issue and have major consequences on operational availability.” I'm quoting someone, but I won't mention his name.
What are your current serviceability rates, and are parts readily available in North America?
This is for the C-27.
5 p.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Alenia North America Inc.
I'll start with the last one, which is easier. Our airplane is 60% American content, so the parts are readily available. We are already servicing a fleet that goes up to 38 joint cargo aircraft, and we have a maintenance centre, maintenance organization, training, and we're fielding aircraft on the ground.
So the parts are available, because we buy American. It's more a problem to transport them to Italy and other regions.
As far as serviceability goes, it really depends on the contract you make with us. There are cases, such as with the U.S. air force, in which we have a contract that is hands off. We basically provide the maintainers; we provide the spares; we provide training. All the air—it was the army, though now it has transitioned to the air force.... Just the pilot arrives, for flying.
In that case, we've been contracted for 80-plus percent. But this is what you're contracted for: you can get 85%; you can go to 70%. The level depends on the investment you want to make. Normally we go for 80% or 85% availability rates in contracts, when it's all in our hands.
Clearly, if you want to do it on your own, as many clients do, such as the Italians, we are contracted for an availability rate. So if the part is available to you, that percentage...which is another way to say 80% to 85% availability.
5:05 p.m.
Executive Director, V-22 Business Development, Bell Helicopter Textron Inc.
The specification rate is 82% for the V-22. Currently, with the operations in Afghanistan, we're not seeing that percentage, but we are putting a disciplined approach to it to address that extreme environment and are seeing the trends in percentages going up every month. There are additional spares being put on the shelves now, and by the time this program were to be enacted, there should be ample spares in place to support the aircraft.
We're also standing up a depot at the same time. That's another option, something to look at in the execution of this program.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to welcome my friends seated at the table. I'd like to start by repeating what I said earlier. The Bloc Québécois considers it a shame that the search and rescue program no longer appears to be one of the government's priorities. This program was announced six years ago. We've already seen all kinds of developments. It is the only program for civilians in distress. For my political party, it is very important that the program move forward. The first step is being taken today. You are part of industry and you're here to explain to us your platform and its capabilities.
Obviously, we will need to continue putting pressure on the government, to give private industry as clear a picture as possible of the program's future. We cannot leave matters hanging like this for long.
Earlier, I asked one of the previous witnesses some questions about the National Research Council. On reading up on the subject, I discovered something important about the so-called Statement of Operational Requirement. I'd like to quote three excerpts from NRC's review:
“The SOR as written is over-constrained.” That is one of the conclusions reached. The review goes on to say this: “A principal recommendation is that the SOR be amended to better reflect a capability-based requirements rationale rather than a platform-centric approach.”
And finally: “NRC recommends that the FWSAR SOR be amended in light of the review documented here.”
I don't know if SORs are often amended. When the government announces, as it did in 2004 and 2006, that it is planning to develop new fixed wing search and rescue capability, your company usually gets down to work and examines the government's requirements. The process is launched. The SOR is published and all companies endeavour to comply with the terms of the Statement of Operational Requirement.
How do you feel about the proposed amendments? I find it odd that DND would release an SOR and, to save time, would then ask NRC to conduct its own review. Ultimately, NRC concludes that the SOR should be amended. Isn't that a problem for some of you? If the government follows through on NRC's recommendation, wouldn't it be unfair to those companies that have already made an effort to comply with the terms of the initial SOR?
5:10 p.m.
Senior Vice-President, Canadian Programs, Alenia North America Canada Co.
Of course the requirements are in the hands of the government. The government debates on the needs and decides which way they want to go. We cannot comment on the requirements because they are coming from the government based on the needs.
What we can say for sure is that we have a good solution, as we explained at the beginning. In terms of the platform, we know we have the range, the speed, the visibility, and the right sensors, and the certification that allows us to go in all these very demanding geographic areas and also in these very rough climates. Basically what I can tell you is that we have put together a good solution on the technical side and on the industrial side. We are waiting for the government to make a decision.
I think we are ready. We hope the government will release the official bid as soon as possible. It's up to them to decide the requirements.
5:10 p.m.
Executive Director, V-22 Business Development, Bell Helicopter Textron Inc.
I would say that for the Bell-Boeing team, it's not very difficult. I say this because we're already challenged every time we propose our solution, because all of the requirements writers write what they know. So they ask for a plane that goes 10% faster. They ask for a helicopter that goes 20 more miles. I'm trying to change the CONOPS, the concept of operations, for your mission. In a way, a paradigm shift is needed to accept that. So are we a helicopter? Are we a fixed wing? Yes.
To me, most of the requirements I see are not written for a tilt rotor anyway. So you can change them again, and my value proposition will remain the same. I am providing you search and rescue, long range, with one platform.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Earlier, I discussed HLMC, or High Level Mandatory Capability, with one of the previous witnesses. It is recommended in the report that requirements presently listed as “Tier 1 rated” be upgraded to HLMC. We talked about a few requirements, and I'd like to discuss a few more with you, as I didn't have time earlier to do so.
Do you have a problem with, among other things, the life-expectancy requirement? I believe NRC is recommending a 30-year life-expectancy. Do your respective platforms satisfy the 30-year life-expectancy requirement recommended by NRC?
5:10 p.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Alenia North America Inc.
I'll start.
If I understood the question correctly, the answer is simply no, in the sense that our product is designed for a life cycle of 30 years, and therefore all our air forces.... And even when we get to the limit, as aircraft now tend to become older and older, there are always ways to look at the cycles that have been utilized and extend their life. We've been used to doing that. We have F-104s that just retired in Italy that flew for 50 years. So we've been very good with life extension programs like that. The predecessor of the C-27J and C-27A, which is the G.222, we just bought back from the Italian air force. We are reconditioning them and restoring and selling them as brand new, with zero hours, to the U.S. air force for Afghanistan.
So we have vast experience in reconditioning and extending life. So it's already designed for it, but we can even go further.