National Defence Committee on Feb. 14th, 2011

[Jerzy Komorowski]

Sorry, could you repeat the question?

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I was talking about the Arctic. The Great North.

The Arctic, did you take it into account?

[Jerzy Komorowski]

Yes, of course, we had to take it into account, because one of the extremes of the incidents could be a need to rescue somebody from the North Pole, and that's the extreme. It is a very low probability event and yet it's one that makes a lot of demands, if you like, when we include all the constraints. That's where we mentioned that given the constraints of the SOR, it would have allowed only one hour of search, which is probably not adequate. So this is where we were driven to this suggestion that perhaps a single aircraft type is too constrained.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you.

I will now turn the floor over to Mr. Harris and he will be the last speaker for today.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

On page 15 of your report, you mention two other reports: “Analysis of Fleet Requirements for FWSAR” and “30-minute Continuous Readiness Posture Analysis”. I'm going to read from the “Review of the Statement of Operational Requirement for the Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Aircraft”:

However, the data used to determine both the hourly decrease in survivability and also the number of people who might have survived was highly filtered and conclusions were drawn based on “witness testimony and anecdotal evidence“ with no raw data presented as “there was insufficient data within the text of the mission reports to properly assess each case for reaction consequence.” Further, only 119 of the 1054 cases were used to draw conclusions on survivability and chances of survival. This study should not be used as a cornerstone to assess either survivability or the impact of holding 24-hour per day 30-minute standby on survivability.

I'm assuming you're saying to the government that the methodology was flawed, that the data were inadequate, and that the government should not draw conclusions based on this source. Is that fair to say?

[Jerzy Komorowski]

We're pointing to the limitation of the available data and the way the data were collected.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

You conclude that there should be another investigation of the cost of increased 30-minute standby period versus the cost of other aircraft.

[Jerzy Komorowski]

We also said this was a valuable tool to assess the cost associated with increased readiness posture in terms of crews required or perhaps maintenance and flying rates.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

It has other information that may be useful?

[Jerzy Komorowski]

You can't have everything from these data, but there is some usefulness.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I found it surprising that on page 1 of your executive summary you say:

The stated objective of the SOR is that new FWSAR aircraft provide a level of service to Canadians equal to that currently provided; a level that is not currently defined in Government of Canada policy.

Your recommendation following that is:

The SOR should describe the FWSAR capability sought by the Government of Canada in terms of SAR service to Canadians. It should also include a list of mandatory requirements reflecting the nature of service to be delivered and the timely delivery of this service.

That's a policy decision that government should make. You're saying that you weren't able to find any level of service that you could measure the capability of.

Are you saying that the government should spell out the expected level of service Canadians can hope to have from a search and rescue operation?

[John McDougall]

The recommendation essentially says that in the absence of a formal policy, it's very difficult to make these kinds of decisions. There are working procedures, but there's no formal policy.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I tried to find one myself and was unable to, but I thought you fellows, with all your abilities, might have found one.

Can I ask one more question? I don't know how much time I have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

You have one minute.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

You've looked at the areas of responsibility for the various search and rescue regions. On the east coast, the Halifax search and rescue region goes right out to the middle of the Atlantic. All your fixed-wing resources are essentially in one corner of that, in Greenwood, with no fixed-wing assets anywhere else. What's the effect of that on the service provided? Can you justify that? Should there be additional resources?

[Jerzy Komorowski]

The justification is the cost, and there are some other considerations. We indicated in our report that Greenwood would present somewhat of a challenge to slower aircraft with reduced range, like the CC-130. On the extreme edges of the envelope of the east region, that would require landing in Gander or St. John's for refuelling, which would take about an hour. So that would have an impact. In the extreme, it would require the aircraft to continue all the way to Ireland, because it wouldn't be able to return. So there are some significant impacts.

Given the number of search and rescue incidents, our technical experts concluded that being based in Greenwood would have reduced the time required to reach a large proportion of the search and rescue incidents.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Thank you, Mr. Komorowski and Mr. McDougall for being with us this afternoon.

On behalf of the members, I would like to thank you for your participation.

I think our meeting is coming to a close.

Mr. Bachand, you had a comment.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

We are going to adjourn for two minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

We are going to continue for a few minutes with meeting number 48 of the Standing Committee on National Defence.

I will give the floor to Mr. Bachand who wants to talk about Wednesday's meeting.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes, that’s exactly it, Mr. Chair.

My colleagues should have had a letter delivered to their offices from the ombudsman of the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces, asking to appear. In a report called The Canadian Forces Grievance Process: Making It Right for Those Who Serve, he points out some anomalies in the grievance process. Since we only have one witness on Wednesday during the first hour, I thought we could invite the ombudsman during the second hour so he could make a presentation on this topic. I respectfully submit this suggestion to my colleagues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Just to inform the committee...

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

He is available. We talked to him.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you, you are very efficient.

Just to inform our colleagues, the witness who confirmed his appearance before us next Wednesday is Mr. Spratt, of the Criminal Lawyers' Association of Ontario. So it's confirmed for Wednesday.

Mr. LeBlanc, the floor is yours.