Evidence of meeting #52 for National Defence in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Jean-François Lafleur
Patrick K. Gleeson  Deputy Judge Advocate General, Military Justice and Administrative Law, Department of National Defence
Lucie Tardif-Carpentier  Procedural Clerk
Michael R. Gibson  Director, Strategic Legal Analysis, Department of National Defence

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

You couldn't stop somebody from doing that. But the big problem that we have with this is the absolute prohibition against officers or NCMs serving on the board. It's absolutely not appropriate, in our view, that this group of people should be absolutely excluded and that we are mandating 60%. I sense there's some flexibility in that.

I think a mix is appropriate, but I don't think we can legislate a hard number on that. So we can't support it as written primarily for those two reasons, but I'd ask Colonel Gleeson or Colonel Gibson if they know if there is a satisfaction rate on the grievance system that we've ever measured to see....

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Colonel Gleeson.

5:15 p.m.

Deputy Judge Advocate General, Military Justice and Administrative Law, Department of National Defence

Col Patrick K. Gleeson

Certainly, grievances are tracked. I don't have any data before me today that could talk to you about the satisfaction level within the membership of the Canadian Forces with respect to the grievance process.

I think I can say, though, that I certainly have not heard the grievance board criticized for being too closely aligned...and I guess that may be an implication, but surely not what has been said here.

I understand exactly what the message is, so I'm not engaging in debate, but just putting on the record expressly that I don't think this is being driven by this thought, and it's certainly not a criticism that I've ever heard, that the grievance board is aligned with the Canadian Forces and therefore is not providing meaningful and legitimate findings and recommendations. I would just throw that out there, again recognizing that that's certainly not what has been expressed.

The final point I would make, again, just for the record more than anything else, is that the current appointment process is competitive, to the best of my knowledge. So all of those individuals—and again, it was made very clear that nobody is talking about the qualifications or the integrity of anybody serving on the board at the current time, and that's well noted—were all appointed through a competitive process and were judged to be the best suitable based on the applications that were received. Obviously I can't speak to whether everybody who could have or should have applied did.

I make those two points. I think Colonel Gibson has just one thing to add.

5:15 p.m.

Director, Strategic Legal Analysis, Department of National Defence

LCol Michael R. Gibson

Mr. Chair, if I may just add one further thought, if members of the committee were to consider this, further to Colonel Gleeson's last point, I'd suggest that perhaps the reason that generally the legislation prescribes a standard or requirement for someone to apply for a position is that certain qualifications are considered desirable or necessary to effectively perform that function.

However, in phrasing in a negative fashion such as this amendment purports, what one is doing is establishing a quota. You're going to have a certain proportion of people who are not former military. And of course given that it's a competitive process, the danger of prescribing a quota in any environment is that one may distort the quality line or the quality level of people appointed. Say, hypothetically, 30 people applied and 25 of them were former military and their qualifications were miles better than the other people who applied but who didn't have that qualification. The difficulty with the quota aspect of this might be to reduce the quality of the people appointed to the board. That's just a relevant consideration for the committee to bear in mind.

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you.

Mr. Hawn, and after that, Mr. Harris.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

I think that last point is a very important consideration.

How many people are on the board when it's fully manned?

5:15 p.m.

Deputy Judge Advocate General, Military Justice and Administrative Law, Department of National Defence

Col Patrick K. Gleeson

I can just quote for you what the act provides for, which is that the board shall be established and consist of “a Chairperson, at least two Vice-Chairpersons and any other members appointed by the Governor in Council”.

Currently the act prescribes a minimum of three persons on the board. I believe there are five now. I'd have to confirm that for the committee but I believe there are five members, not all of them full-time.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Is there any upper limit?

5:15 p.m.

Deputy Judge Advocate General, Military Justice and Administrative Law, Department of National Defence

Col Patrick K. Gleeson

The act does not prescribe an upper limit; it's based on workload, Mr. Chair. But again, I believe five has been the practice over time.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you very much.

Mr. Harris.

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Just briefly, this notion of a quota to me is not an issue here.

Qualifications include being a civilian, in my view. If you're going to have civilian oversight, you've got to have a civilian. These are Governor in Council appointments. There may well be applications and things like that. The Governor in Council can appoint whomever they want.

I'd like to call the question, Mr. Chair.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

We have Mr. Hawn and Mr. Bachand after that.

Mr. Hawn.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

On this whole concept of civilian oversight, there is civilian oversight of the military--that's a given concept in any democracy. That doesn't mean that every department of the military has civilian oversight, and I think that's what this is coming down to here a little, that this has to have civilian oversight because it's part of the military. That is not the concept of civilian oversight of the military in a democracy.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you.

Mr. Bachand, you are the last speaker,

5:20 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

I want to deal with two questions.

First, one of my major concerns since the beginning of this discussion has been to try to bring military justice closer to civilian justice. If we set up a military justice system that is completely military, we move away from the principle I want to maintain. That is why I am in favour of this.

In terms of the qualities of the individuals who are going to be appointed by the Governor in Council anyway, I just remind people that, in the civilian justice system, when major trials are held before a jury, all kinds of people make up that jury. We can't forbid someone from being part of a jury, which means having a person's future in one's hands in a legal sense, just because he sweeps the streets.

The civilian approach is important. There are also consequences to bringing the civilian and the military system together. There will be those who perhaps cannot fully understand military life, and then there will be those who may have spent 30 years in the Canadian Forces. But justice may also imply using a different approach. It will be interesting to see whether case law changes as the result of this amendment. I feel that the change is a step in the right direction.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you.

Mr. Gleeson.

5:20 p.m.

Deputy Judge Advocate General, Military Justice and Administrative Law, Department of National Defence

Col Patrick K. Gleeson

Again, I don't want to prolong this, but I think it's very important to respond to the comment that Mr. Bachand just made, and that is that this is not a military justice issue; this is an administrative tribunal. It's not a jury, so it's not a jury of individuals who are coming to judge guilt or innocence; it's an administrative tribunal.

The very reason that administrative tribunals are formed is to bring a body of expertise to the table that has a special knowledge that can deal with issues.

So again, it's just the analogy to a jury system, and this is not. I wouldn't want to leave it on the record that somehow this is a jury that's out there making these decisions. This is an administrative body that has a special expertise in the area of grievances.

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

They should be all military.

5:20 p.m.

Deputy Judge Advocate General, Military Justice and Administrative Law, Department of National Defence

Col Patrick K. Gleeson

No, I certainly don't suggest that at all. And I'm certainly not trying to debate with the committee, but I think it's important for the record that it's not a jury.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Okay, thank you.

5:20 p.m.

Deputy Judge Advocate General, Military Justice and Administrative Law, Department of National Defence

Col Patrick K. Gleeson

This is your issue to make a decision on.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Mr. Hawn.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

We cannot support this with the absolute prohibition against serving members. That is unacceptable. The quota, and that's what this is, is not acceptable.

As written, we can't support it.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Okay.

No one else wants to discuss the amendment? Fine. We can now vote on amendment NDP-3.

(Amendment agreed to)

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Is there consensus in the committee to extend the result of the vote that we have just had on amendment NDP-3 to amendments NDP-4, NDP-5, NDP-6 and NDP-7?