National Defence Committee on April 13th, 2010

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Well, I will put it to you, and you can comment if you wish, that the system of bringing former CF members who are now reservists back in has to interfere with the advancement of junior ranks within the regular forces. I don't know how you avoid that. From what you're telling me, you don't avoid it. If you have somebody who's ready to move in there right now, you'll do that rather than put somebody up and promote him.

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Agreed, but I would say that's not being done, because if you take a look--and I do own this part of the career process--every year we hold merit boards for each rank level. Merit boards are established and then people are promoted. That hasn't changed. Now we're just talking about positions in the regular force.

Most of the positions that we're talking about here have been created, as mentioned in the comments up front, because of the current high demand for individuals, given Afghanistan and the need to expand the Canadian Forces in the longer term, even though we've recruited people up front.

If you take a look at the establishment of the Canadian Forces, it is going to be relooked at. We need a new establishment for the Canadian Forces for regular force, full-time reserves, and part-time reserves. That's what needs to be built, and that's what they're beginning to work on right now to ensure that everyone gets a chance, which I believe they do right now in the reserve force, to continue with their career progression.

However, the challenge becomes this: there are reservists, when you look into it, who are not in permanent reserve positions and who have to recompete every three years for a job. Therein lies the challenge.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Can I interrupt you there? I do have one more question, and I suspect I'm running out of time.

The bigger question, I think, for the public is the one Mr. Bachand touched on. Perhaps I can ask you to provide some information on that to the committee.

I want to know, first of all, how many new class B positions have been created at NDHQ in the last five years, what the ranks are and when they were created. This is for temporary positions, I guess, one-, two-, or three-year positions.

Secondly, how many people do you have above the rank of, say, major who go from retirement to a contractor position or a consultant position or whatever, and how many of them have happened in the last five years?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Monsieur le président, we can provide all that data to the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much. We appreciate that.

I will give the floor to Mr. Hawn.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming.

I'd like to keep exploring that part a little bit, and you touched on it, General Semianiw, when you talked about merit boards and career managers and so on. There is a role here that we really haven't talked about too much, and that is the role of career managers, the role of merit boards, the role of upward mobility by means of promotion, which is based on merit and not just qualifications.

Could you comment a little bit on the role of the career manager and on the oversight of the chain of command within the career management organization that ensures, to whatever extent, that it is fair and that the right people are advanced?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Every year, when we hold our merit boards--which are words to mean that a group of individuals at the appropriate rank level come into a room and look at the files for every occupation in the Canadian Forces.... That's infantry, armoured, and artillery at every rank level. We have hundreds of these. They run annually, from September until the end of November. They then produce a merit list. That is the list that is used to promote people every year in the Canadian military in the regular force.

In the merit system, producing that list is actually done electronically, to give you a little bit of detail. Files are scored based on a number of factors--on leadership, on education, on official language requirements, and on backgrounds. People are allocated scores, the scores come out, and the people with the highest scores obviously are higher on the list. But at the end of it all, a merit board produces a list that goes from one to the number of people within a trade or occupation across the Canadian Forces.

At the end of November, we take a look at who is leaving the Canadian Forces, who is retiring. Then we contact those on the list and say, for instance, “In all likelihood, you could be promoted this year, because we have three people leaving, and you're numbers one, two, and three on the list.”

It's very open, very transparent, and happens every year in the Canadian Forces. It's probably done nowhere across any government in this detail to ensure that the right people are promoted with the right skills and qualifications for future positions.

We then also ask the chain of command, those who are in charge of the units, to write.... Every year you get a PER, a piece of paper that describes how you did over the last year in a number of areas. As well, the chain of command comments on your future potential.

So when you take a look at career progression, it's based on two components: one is your performance and one is your potential. They come together to produce that list, from which we determine who is promoted.

On the class B side--that's the regular force--the overall career management for class B is still held within the army, the navy, the air force. I don't control that, as the chief of military personnel.

I personally believe...and the Chief of the Defence Staff and I have talked about this. We'd like to move to a more centralized approach on the career management of reservists so that it moves out of the army, navy, air force and is held centrally by the chief of military personnel. I can then apply, as noted in those questions, those same processes and approaches that we have for the regular force today.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, General.

On the issue of the X brothers--General X and Colonel X--is one of the challenges here with respect to...? I just want to re-emphasize that you cannot change established positions.

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

No, you can't.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

You can fill them with people who aren't necessarily regular force.

Is one of the challenges here, especially at the staff levels in a place like NDHQ, just the operational tempo and the fact that the operators are out there operating and it's difficult to fill some of those staff positions in the headquarters?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Agreed. As mentioned, Afghanistan is one of the reasons. The other one is the transformation expanding the forces. But the operational tempo at the highest level....

Remember, as parliamentarians, you not only demand for me to talk to this issue; you demand for me to have effective oversight of my organization. That requires people. If you expect me to go out and visit to ensure that people are doing what they're expected to do, you need to have people organize that.

That doesn't speak to the overall broader issue, but it speaks to the fact that the operational tempo right now is very high. It has led to more full-time reservists. The number has come down about 1,500 already in the last six months. It's coming down even further as we bring the operational tempo down.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

People use the word “double-dipping” like it's a bad thing. Is double-dipping not simply somebody who has fulfilled a contract, has earned a pension, and now is being employed because of their unique qualifications and experience?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Agreed. And that was my same view when I saw the words “double-dipping” first used in the press.

First, it is allowed. It follows the Treasury Board regulations. I've looked at the issue in detail, because someone did ask me whether I could turn to someone and say, “You cannot get your pension as long as you have this job”. I cannot, because drawing your pension is a right you have as part of the superannuation, the annuity program. Whether or not you re-hire the person is a different issue, but saying you can't draw your pension is a challenge in the current construct.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Finally, you talk about the current hiring process with the new software models and so on, and the aim of it is, as you said, to be fair.

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Yes.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

You said it can be dispersed around the country. What level of review is on that process to ensure that it's fair?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

The next step in my organization, which is what we're hoping to roll across the Canadian Forces, is that if I hire somebody as class B, the next level up will have to review and approve that. But again, as we provide additional oversight, it means I need to hire somebody else to do that piece, to have another individual confirm that person has the best qualifications for that particular position.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

You'd probably be biased in this, but in terms of the overall system, is it fair?

It can always be looked at for improvements and we're always trying to improve systems.

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Agreed, as in anything.

Right now, with the new software, we're taking it one step further to be more open and more transparent. If you were to see it—and I've actually looked at it in detail—it lists everyone vying for that position. That's open for everyone to see. It lists all of the qualifications. That's open for everyone to see. Perhaps that may not have been as open as it was. Now it is.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

Now I will give the floor to Mr. Martin.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Merci beaucoup, monsieur le président.

General Semianiw, Colonel Moher, and Ms. Johnson, thank you very much for being here.

I have a couple of questions, General. One is on the reserve targets that the forces have. As you mentioned in your comments, the reserve numbers are going to go down as the regular force replaces them. Do you have a sense of what the regular force targets will be and what the reserve targets will be?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Yes.

You've got to come back to the Canada First defence strategy. The Canada First defence strategy has laid out the targets for the regular force and the reserve force. Within that discussion you then have to look at the issue of what they're speaking to. In most cases in the reserve force, it's part-time reservists, not class B reservists.

The expansion as laid out by the government is to increase the reserve force to a higher number, 3,000; that is, expanding part-time reservists across Canada in the armouries. This expansion is still on track and is not affected in any way by this discussion.

On the reserve side, class B reservist, it's very simple. As I mentioned, we had about 4,000 to 5,000 historically. As the operational tempo goes down, as more people come through the training pipeline and are ready to assume those responsibilities and duties, the number of personnel who are on full-time class B employment will come down. That's the challenge.

I throw this out as an example of something that's worth the committee taking a look at. That is, if somebody decided to leave unannounced tomorrow morning from my organization--a colonel who has been in the organization for 25 years has decided to leave and is gone--how do I fill that, to be clear?

First, I would go to the merit list that we've talked about before, and I'd look at that person on the merit list and say that person is promoted. In some cases, if you have gone too far down the list, you have to ask, how far down do you go? Are we ensuring that individuals have the time behind them, and the experience and the credibility to move into those positions? That's why you might fill that position with someone who may have been around--regular force, one, two, or three years at every rank level, corporal, master corporal, sergeant. I have a sergeant who works for me who was regular force. He is on a three-year contract; he's filling a gap. His contract expires shortly and that's it. It was to fill the gap as someone is moving along who'll be able to fill it as we expand the Canadian Forces.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

General Semianiw, we know there was a gap in terms of the crucial aspect in terms of the CPOs, the sergeants, and the master corporals. Can you give the committee a sense of where the CF is right now with respect to closing that gap of that crucial skill set?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Remember, when you speak to the issue of the gap with the baby boomers, it's across all rank levels. Baby boomers are not just parliamentarians or senior people in the Canadian Forces. It's different here, but in the Canadian Forces it covers the entire swath of the Canadian Forces. It is a bubble that we have in the Canadian Forces that is moving this way. We're about a third of the way through that challenge. That also has--coming back to the question posed here--been the second point that has exacerbated the problem.

The first is the operational tempo, the second is the baby boomer piece, and the third was retention. I've been here to talk about retention--retention is down to 7.2%. So as you have all these three factors working against you, how do you ensure that you have trained and qualified personnel in the Canadian Forces at all rank levels? So we're about a third of the way through the baby boomer kind of bubble. How we're doing it is by recruiting people up front.

The second question becomes the answer to what we're discussing here: it's by hiring people on class B positions while we wait for people to kind of move ahead to fill up the ranks.