National Defence Committee on Sept. 20th, 2011

[MGen Jonathan Vance]

Thank you for the question.

I did respond in general about the ongoing threat. The Gadhafi forces are--in a local context of Bani Walid, Sirte, and some places in the south--relatively strong in eroding defensive positions, if I could put it to you that way. They can still cause some damage to those who have tried to dislodge them.

More importantly, they have shown and continue to show a propensity to harm civilians in their immediate midst, be that creating mass casualty situations or general mistreatment. You'll see civilians fleeing from these areas, and so on.

The Gadhafi regime and their forces have already demonstrated, without doubt, their propensity to do this. And indeed, the most recent UN Security Council resolution 2009 still recognizes the threat to civilians. So we take that as a given. And the forces are still relatively strong locally.

It's a tactical fight, which they will lose. It's a matter of time. It's difficult to put an actual reliable timeframe on this. We're not talking about years and years of fighting here. We're not talking about months and months of fighting here. We're probably talking about some weeks.

I think that estimate is more assured if they maintain the momentum. That is, if the NTC, in their current political momentum and their military momentum, and if the country as a whole gets back on its feet, if that momentum continues, then these locally powerful Gadhafi forces will be eliminated by the opposition.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

I'm going to have to cut you off there, General. We're well over time.

[MGen Jonathan Vance]

Could I just...?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

If you can be very brief.

[MGen Jonathan Vance]

Okay, because I do want to talk about chemicals here.

There is no question that the Gadhafi regime had access to the components of chemical weapons. As far as we know, they are being monitored very, very closely by the international community, will be monitored very closely by any forces that move in there from the NTC's perspective, and at this time chemicals are not in play.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Mr. Kellway, it's your turn.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madame McCardell, a UN resolution of last Friday made some changes to the arms embargo with respect to the NTC. I wonder if you could describe those changes for us, please.

[Sandra McCardell]

I'll provide the amateur's introduction, and then I will turn to the expert on the implications of that.

Yes, you are quite correct, Friday's resolution brought some changes to the arms embargo. They are chiefly focused on two exemptions now for bringing weapons in for certain kinds of protection of personnel on the ground, and for training purposes. But I will allow our Judge Advocate General to speak to that.

[Captain Geneviève Bernatchez]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and Madame McCardell.

I think this was very aptly described. UN Security Council resolution 2009 provides two exceptions to the enforcement of the arms embargo for very specific purposes, recognizing that the arms embargo that was imposed under resolutions 1970 and 1973 remains extant. What is already in place as far an as arms embargo, especially vis-à-vis the protection of civilians and civilian-populated areas in Libya, remains fully extant.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you.

I understand that as of yesterday a copy of that resolution had not been published. I wonder if that could be provided to the committee in English and French. Is that possible?

[Captain Geneviève Bernatchez]

Yes, with great pleasure.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you very much.

That's it for me, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Mr. Harris.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

As a follow-up to the arms embargo issue, I know there were some reports earlier that France had supplied some munitions, particularly in the western mountains of Libya, to the NTC forces. Can you tell us, General, how the NTC forces are being supplied? Are they using captured weapons? They obviously have had some sort of coordinated effort going on for some time. With the arms embargo in place, are they able to supply their operations?

[MGen Jonathan Vance]

That's a great question. Of course Libya was a heavily armed state with lots of weapons extant, and this is an uprising, so they took some of the weapons.

The ongoing support to them has come from a variety of methods. We don't have great insight into all of them. They are getting support from allies--NATO and non-NATO allies. I think the weapons you're referring to, those larger weapon systems and so on, the technicals, they either made them or they took them from Gadhafi forces as they rolled through their areas. But there certainly has been some active support from their allies, for sure.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

This change in the arms embargo through the Security Council resolution 2009, that's not intended to--nor would it, I take it--upset or change the balance of arms between both sides. Is that correct? Or is that intended to ease the ability of the NTC to provide a proper government and develop towards that? If someone can give us a background on that....

[MGen Jonathan Vance]

I think I can--

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I know Captain Bernatchez was being delicate about what it actually meant, but in terms of the purpose of it, was it intended to assist in the development of the civil power? Was that the intention, or was it an intention that has to do with the ongoing conflict?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Captain Bernatchez.

[Captain Geneviève Bernatchez]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Without presupposing the intent of the Security Council, of course, the effect of the current resolution is to actually carve out specific areas that are specifically intended for the continuation of the support provided to the Libyan population and to the NTC in their endeavour.

As Ambassador McCardell has mentioned, if you look at “Operating”, paragraph 13--and I will make sure this resolution gets distributed to this committee--the arms embargo now does not apply to arms and related materials that are intended solely for the security or disarmament assistance to the Libyan authorities. So it clarifies this. It further clarifies in subsection (b) that the international community is to include United Nations personnel, representatives of the media, and humanitarian and development workers, and that they will be allowed to bring in small armaments for the purpose of their self-defence.

I believe this is a regime that continues to be applied generally very strongly through the operation of resolutions 1970 and 1973. But to be more specific, the Security Council made specific exemptions to the arms embargo.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I suppose the ambassador would best be able to handle this question. As we go forward, I guess most Canadians want to know what role the United Nations is going to play, and an assessment on where the European Union stands with regard to Libya. Could you describe the ongoing processes in Canada's relationship with these two bodies, with an indication of whether they have an intention to come forward and be of some assistance as the new government in Libya takes hold?

[Sandra McCardell]

Sure, and I think to a certain extent we've covered some of those elements.

As far as Canada's relationship with the UN goes, as we've indicated, today the Prime Minister is attending a meeting of Friends of Libya, chaired by the UN Secretary General, for the purpose of coordinating this kind of assistance. So the engagement is from the highest level all the way down to a working level. There was a working-level meeting on stabilization assistance attended by the UN and the NTC. We are absolutely committed to working in step with our partners.

The European Union is a part of this process. We have coordinated with them throughout this broader multilateral group, which also had a meeting in Paris on September 1. We will ensure that what we are doing fits in with what others are doing. We don't want to create a situation in which there's either overlap or gaps between our efforts. As we just mentioned, the UN is establishing its office on the ground in Tripoli with a new Secretary General's special representative. So they will be in theatre to make sure that their contact with the NTC is regular and that they're getting the best information on what the Libyans themselves want.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

We have CIDA, but are any other international organizations, such as CARE, getting involved? We have quite a few organizations in Canada beginning to talk about assistance. Is CIDA working with those organizations or are you beginning to coordinate efforts?

[Leslie E. Norton]

Thank you for the question.

There are some Canadian NGOs noting their interest in becoming involved. At this time, we are not funding any of the Canadian NGOs for the humanitarian response, and that's because the approach we take is we will fund organizations that are already well established during a conflict, as opposed to having them get established during a conflict situation. There's no time to lose. So at this point we do not fund any of the Canadian NGOs that are active there.

Would you like to comment for the wider CIDA component?