Evidence of meeting #24 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John MacLennan  National President, Union of National Defence Employees
Tim McGrath  Consultant, Union of National Defence Employees
Jerome Berthelette  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

We'll call this meeting to order.

We are going to continue with our study on the readiness of the Canadian armed forces.

Because of the bells, our first hour here has been cut short with our first witnesses, representatives of the Union of National Defence Employees. Joining us is John MacLennan, who is the national president, and Tim McGrath, who is a consultant.

Even though this was confidentially circulated to the committee on the weekend, it was in the media through the weekend and into Monday as well, so I'm a little disappointed that this wasn't tabled here first before it was turned over to the media. Regardless, it is what it is. There are some serious allegations in this report, and I don't know how much it has to do with readiness, but because of the gravity of the issues you are raising, I ask that you present it to committee now.

Mr. MacLennan, you have the floor.

11:40 a.m.

John MacLennan National President, Union of National Defence Employees

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, committee members.

I'd like to start by thanking you for the invitation to discuss the Canadian Forces' readiness from my perspective as the national president of the Union of National Defence Employees. I look forward to answering your questions in the short time we will have following my comments.

During the course of these committee hearings, you have heard from many witnesses, including the Chief of Defence Staff, General Natynczyk. They have all agreed with his assessment that readiness is the ability to get the right people with the right skills and the right equipment to the right place at the right time, and to sustain that for as long as is required.

As the president of the Union of National Defence Employees, I am well placed to speak to that ability. We have a membership of over 17,000 employees who work in a wide range of occupations, which includes the skilled trades, mechanics, electricians, firefighters, safety inspectors, technologists, linguists, and intelligence officers. My membership is key to, and indeed proud to be a part of, the Canadian national defence team. In every case, from keeping the lights on to providing critical intelligence, each employee provides an important function that supports the Canadian Forces.

Ultimately it is my duty to consider not only how this period of transition impacts operational readiness, but also how it simultaneously impacts both our workplace and our people, with an eye to the government's current fiscal situation. All of this must be considered concurrently with the unique work of the Department of National Defence. In other words, fiscal interests and the costs must be balanced with sound national security. Recent developments have created a more independent cryptographic agency, CSEC, or Communications Security Establishment Canada, which is responsible for providing the government with foreign signal intelligence and is trusted with the protection of electronic information and communication.

We cannot do either of these tasks that are critical to our national security if contracting out infrastructure destroys our confidence. Across almost every line of work, from the skilled trades to the linguistic services, security is a factor. These unique considerations make an integrated work environment essential to effective operational security. Accountability and transparent practices are essential if we are to get value for our money, and staffing and contracting practices must be more sound today than ever before. Further, wages paid to our employees must be competitive in order to keep them employed in the public sector.

In addition, now that the first wave of the source contract projects for P3, public-private partnerships, are coming of age, evidence is showing that the cost savings originally anticipated are falling well short of initial targets. Why should we let contractors perform real property and contract administration functions at bases, for example, at premium when it is clear that there is expertise available to perform those duties in-house? It amounts to double-billing the Canadian taxpayers.

As Minister MacKay said over the weekend, speaking from the recent NATO ministerial meeting in Brussels:

“All of the buzzwords—streamlining, efficiencies—are very much being heard in the halls of NATO as they're being bantered around in the halls of Ottawa,”.... “Everyone is talking more about partnerships, talking about what has been deemed smart defence. And smart defence means insuring that we're not duplicating efforts, that there aren't redundancies.”

As we move through this period of transition while simultaneously undergoing strategic review, it will be essential to review local practices closely and, where appropriate, to identify areas for review and audit.

This brings me to the systemic issues that the union has seen emerge over the course of the last five years with Defence Construction Canada, DCC. As a result, over the past nine months we have undertaken a review of Defence Construction Canada and the impact it has had on construction engineering work sites at bases across Canada.

Our undertaking has discovered some very harmful evidence pointing to poor quality workmanship allowed by DCC: the duplication of services DCC provides, already being performed by public sector employees; the questionable application of the Financial Administration Act; the amount of wasteful spending of Canadian taxpayer dollars; and how DCC is becoming a shadow public service.

We have provided this committee with our executive summary of these highlighted issues. During these hearings we are prepared to provide what we have collected to support our findings by producing invoices, photographs, and information from our members on what I've just described. In doing this, just to be clear, it is not that we haven't proactively approached the department at the most senior and working levels, on many occasions in official and non-official forums, by addressing the path and the growth of Defence Construction Canada, which is documented.

These issues have not been given the full serious consideration of what would be expected to be true accountability. Most recently, we challenged why one part of the department is allowed to grow, meaning Defence Construction Canada, and the other part of the department is asked to do some belt-tightening, forcing resource cuts, with no business case to support it.

It is at this juncture that we are calling for a complete forensic audit by an outside, independent organization. Ultimately, we clearly understand that how much we invest in the future operational readiness must necessarily take into account how much we've already invested in the people and the specific skills they possess. While efficiencies must be found and difficult decisions made, it should not be at the expense of the hard-earned skill innovation.

To conclude, throughout this phase of hearings, we have heard from stakeholders who have described what readiness looks like overall as we transition from a high operational tempo to a post-Afghanistan context. We can agree that the priorities have and will continue to change significantly over the coming months and years.

Mr. Chair, I have no doubt that we are capable of balancing resource management with the need to deliver sound support to the Canadian Forces, and I thank you very much for this audience.

With me today, I have Tim McGrath, who we've retained as a subject-matter expert in real property work.

We look forward to your questions. Thank you very much.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you.

We're going to have only 15 minutes to go through this set of witnesses before we move on to the Office of the Auditor General. We'll do five to six minutes on the first round.

Madam Moore, you have the floor.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Fine.

In the draft report that I had the opportunity to read, several problems were mentioned.

I just want to know if you can give me an example of those kinds of problems, of work that has not been done properly. Also, what are the solutions and what are the consequences if we do nothing?

11:45 a.m.

National President, Union of National Defence Employees

John MacLennan

The type of work we describe in the report is the construction of buildings where.... We have photographs that show that after the contractor left, there is definitely a break between the building and the foundation. In one instance, we have a kitchen where the contractor came in and had to pour a concrete floor. When the contractor left, there was such a slope in the floor that now they cannot use that building, so there's a problem.

We have an incident where, in one of our ammunition depots, a contractor went in to build another building, cut the grounding wire, and they filled it back up. When the electricians—our members, the public servants—did an electrical test, they discovered there was no grounding wire, so the work had to be redone.

When these things happen, when the poor workmanship happens, it is normally the public service employees who are asked to go in and repair that work.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

What is the consequence, then? What is the solution for those problems?

11:45 a.m.

National President, Union of National Defence Employees

John MacLennan

The solution is that a lot of the work that DCC is undertaking now is outside their mandate. They're doing the small jobs on the bases, where their mandate is to look after the bigger administration of the construction of buildings. The resources are inside the department to do that work. Rely on the existing public sector to do it. The skills are there. That's the solution. As people retire in the department, DCC is becoming the shadow public service because the department is not backfilling those positions. They're going to DCC, which will contract out the work that could be done by the public service, instead of recruiting the public sector.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Okay.

What are the consequences if we do not act right now or if we do not take fast action on this?

11:45 a.m.

National President, Union of National Defence Employees

John MacLennan

There's a creep going on that the cost of doing business is going to rise. We have evidence of different work that our members did, and the same job was done by the private sector. The costs of that were just extraordinary compared to what it costs for the private sector to do it. There were inflated costs for material and also for hours of work.

In the context of defence readiness, if we're going to move forward, we want to make sure—and we're conscious of this—that the taxpayers are getting the best bang for their buck by the people who are currently doing the work, and that those resources can be freed up for other military assets. We have been working diligently over the last three years to put business cases forward proving that the work can be done better in-house than it can be if we have to rely on the private sector.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Okay.

Are you able to tell me what the percentage of our costs are due to their not doing the job properly or their paying too much for something we are not supposed to pay for? What is the percentage of our costs, and how much money is completely wasted because the work is not being done properly?

11:50 a.m.

National President, Union of National Defence Employees

John MacLennan

From the information we've collected over the last nine months—and we don't know if we have just scratched the surface—we have identified that the wasteful spending going on is becoming more systemic. I don't have a dollar figure.

Tim, is there anything that you discovered?

11:50 a.m.

Tim McGrath Consultant, Union of National Defence Employees

It's difficult to put a dollar figure on it. One example came out of Goose Bay. They changed the way that something as simple as batteries could be purchased. The member for DND used to be able to go down and buy batteries at the Canadian Tire. Two AA batteries would be a couple of bucks. Now they have to send a work order to the individual at Defence Construction. The individual from Defence Construction needs to engage the contractor, who goes and buys the same batteries, and sends an invoice to the Department of National Defence for $12.

There are recent examples of a contractor suggesting that a bag of concrete he would buy would be $2, but when he does work for Defence Construction he charges them $20.

There was an example involving a scissor lift that we found in one of the sites we visited. A scissor lift for a job that was done by an outside contractor costs around $5,800. When DND's employees went and rented that same scissor lift for the same period of time, it was $1,700.

It's just this type of example. Again, we don't know if we found all of the examples. We may have, but we don't know if there are other examples out there, which contractors just see as doing business with the government without any direct consequences for overcharging. Nor did there appear to be any type of evidence showing there was rigour around checking the prices of material.

We have evidence of one job for which a construction and engineering employee found an invoice that came in on the fax machine. In this situation, the DND employees and the DCC employees were sharing the same work space. The employee saw it, understood sort of the magnitude of the job, went back and checked the time logs as to when this contractor was on site, and found that the contractor wasn't on site the number of hours he had suggested. He brought that invoice back to Defence Construction. Defence Construction took it, sent it back out to the contractor saying, “Hey, there must be a discrepancy in the number of hours that you're claiming.” The contractor took the invoice, reduced the number of hours by half, doubled the rate he was charging for the hours, and then increased the amount of material used on the job. It was the very same job. He made reference to the work order. We have those invoices.

We weren't given full access to DND's records. It's quite understandable that we wouldn't be given full access. But based on the information that members were able to provide to us, the questions are warranted: Is this a small problem? Is this a large problem? Should further investigation be carried out?

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you. Your time has expired.

Mr. Chisu, you have the floor.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Corneliu Chisu Conservative Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for your presentation.

I'm a military engineer with service in Afghanistan and also in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

I understand that you put forward some information, some allegations, against DCC. Minister Ambrose said she would deal with this issue if there is proof.

However, here is my question to you. You are aware that the subject that this committee is studying is readiness in the Canadian Forces, and I would like to assure you that my questions will be along those lines. I will not ask about DCC or other issues.

I just want to ask you, what contribution does the Union of National Defence Employees make to the overall readiness of the Canadian Forces?

In your opinion, as the president of the Union of National Defence Employees, what are the major contributing factors to readiness, in terms of the Canadian Forces being able to deploy at a moment's notice? Is it training, proper equipment, strategic planning? What are your insights in this regard as to how your employees are supporting this effort of the Canadian Forces to be ready?

You are an integral part of the effort of the troops to deliver their jobs. Are you giving any training? What do you think is necessary for the people in National Defence to contribute to the proper and efficient deployment of the Canadian Forces in the theatres of operation?

11:55 a.m.

National President, Union of National Defence Employees

John MacLennan

Thank you for the question. I'm very proud to have the bragging rights of our membership in terms of what we do to support the troops when they're deployed, when they're in theatre, and when they're not.

We keep the buildings going on the bases. We turn on the lights; we turn off the lights. They have a secure building that they can rely on to sleep in, store their equipment, cook their food. And we also are deployed with the troops, as we saw in the past 10 years in Afghanistan.

We're very proud of what we do because we take ownership of what we do once the equipment is fixed. We have two major supply depots in Canada that warehouse a lot of military assets.

W e were very active in the 2010 Olympics, in Comox, where we had people working around the clock keeping the pilots fed as they were doing their surveillance for 24 hours during the Olympics. We had people who were supporting the special forces in different aspects. That's domestically.

When we're deployed internationally.... Just down the road here in Trenton, Ontario, we have our people who work for DART, in the warehouse there, and they also keep the equipment tuned up and ready to go. When the soldiers land somewhere in the world on an issue for humanitarian assistance, the military, the soldiers, know that when they turn on their equipment, it's going to start, it's going to work, and it's going to save lives.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Corneliu Chisu Conservative Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

What professional development do you see for your people? It is necessary to have professional development to be able to efficiently support our troops.

11:55 a.m.

National President, Union of National Defence Employees

John MacLennan

A lot of the members, I would say 80% of them right now, are products of the nineties. What I mean by that is that when the Department of National Defence was gutted, if I can use that word, in the nineties, they were part of that. They saw how much it hurt the capability of the armed forces. They've taken pride in ownership and they want to be accountable to ensure that this never happens again.

So when there is wasteful spending that they identify—and we've been working on this proactively—they want to bring attention to it and make a difference on this wasteful spending. We've been at it with our business cases.

There was one recently where a member—I think it was very well publicized—a bus driver, said he was told at four o'clock by his employer to park the brand-new $200,000 bus in the yard. They didn't have any money to pay him overtime, yet troops still had to picked up in Trenton, or here in Ottawa, or brought to Trenton so they could be deployed. They ran out of money to pay him overtime, so they hired a local bus company to the tune of $800 for four hours' work. My members don't make $800 for four hours work. So they challenged it with a business case, which was proven, and they found the resources to start paying that extra money to deploy the troops.

That's the professional, academic side of it, for people to have skills.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Corneliu Chisu Conservative Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

I would also ask about the construction engineering staff you have on the bases. How do you make sure they develop professionally? That is an important part of the development and is contributing to our readiness for our troops.

11:55 a.m.

National President, Union of National Defence Employees

John MacLennan

Yes, and in the construction engineering trades, we realized, because of the demographics of our membership, they were getting to be a more seasoned workforce, and some day they would retire from those skilled trades. We were able to negotiate with Treasury Board, in our collective agreements, very clear language on an apprenticeship program to replenish those skills. The Canadian government recognized that six years ago and put in an apprenticeship program. The Department of National Defence recognized it. There is annual funding of $25 million for new apprentices coming in to replenish the stock. That's where you see the academic part of it coming into play.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Your time has expired.

Mr. McKay, you have the last round.

Noon

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Mr. McGrath and Mr. MacLennan.

I have actually no difficulty linking this to readiness, because squandered money is squandered money. In the event that money is going in the wrong direction, that affects the ability of the forces to deploy and be effective. I think there is a clear linkage between the two.

You made some pretty serious allegations in your paper here of overbilling, double billing, shoddy work, dangerous work, and things of that nature. You say in your paper that you actually have approached senior officials. What response did you get?

Noon

National President, Union of National Defence Employees

John MacLennan

It was documented when we had national labour-management committee meetings with all the senior union reps—and the deputy minister co-chaired them with the labour rep.

We brought pictures of an example. Three years ago we discovered that a contractor was flown up from Trenton, Ontario, on a Hercules aircraft to replace the tiles. We had pictures of that job. After the contractor came back, the tiles all cracked. The public service had to go up there and fix it. We brought this picture and evidence to the department to show them what was going on. It stopped. It was like they said, “Okay, we know about it. It won't happen again.”

They're not giving it the attention we think it deserves.

Noon

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

How long have you been on this campaign?

Noon

National President, Union of National Defence Employees

John MacLennan

It started, looking at DCC, not in a campaign context, in 2007 when we started bringing it up. We have the documents from the meetings when we brought Defence Construction Canada up. They were at the most senior level with the deputy minister and the committee I sit on. We also went to each base and had those same conversations. So that has all been well documented.

Noon

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

What was the response of the senior folks? Was it, “It won't happen again”? Was there a more substantive response than that?